<p>I've never seen that t-shirt...it's certainly not sold anywhere. The one with that slogan is "Anywhere else it would've been an A..." - explaining the grade deflation, haha.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what issues fall under the category of not worth dealing with, but I can see why that would be a concern.</p>
<p>swatparent,
I really hadn't planned to reply and I'm not trying to be contentious, but I have another parent's point of view for prospective Swat students. My S just graduated from Swat (6/07) and he had a high GPA. (Might he have achieved a higher GPA elsewhere? Of course, but his GPA from Swat was quite high.) He was heavily involved in at least two EC's that I know of, and participated in the Honors program. His GPA was high enough to land him in one of the top Ph.D programs in the country. One of his friends from the class of '05 was an ENGLISH major who was accepted to one of the top med schools in the country and is now a 3rd year med student. One certainly does not have to major in a hard science to be accepted into medical school. And of course you know that Swat does not have any sort of "pre-med" major. I sincerely hope that both you and your Swat student end up being happy with the program. Best wishes.</p>
<p>Forgetmenots</p>
<p>Swat’s big selling points are its 1) academics and 2) campus culture that is passionate, socially aware, political and activist (or more so than many other places). The shirt I mentioned was a parody of the more familiar motto to highlight #2.</p>
<p>There are many reasons why this is good. Racist/sexist/homophobic comments and acts that may be tolerated elsewhere or overlooked are dealt with at Swat. That was the intention of "Anywhere else it wouldn't have been an issue". However, when it came out, there were a lot of giggles and eye rolling by students as well because it seemed to describe another aspect of the college. When you have a campus culture that is “aware”, this can manifest in other ways. It’s like a Seinfeld episode. Issues that would be mere nuisances and distractions at larger places can become intellectualized debates, “incidents” and “issues” in Swat’s small community. I was primarily thinking about all the talk about “grade deflation” and workload but I’m sure you’ll notice other stuff as well. As evidenced, Swat seems very average regarding its grading policy as there are other places that have curves that are as harsh or more so but without the T-shirt and fanfare. Regarding workload, I’m fairly certain that there are several other colleges and universities that demand a lot out of their students but without the misery poker (as one example, 1/3 of Haverford premeds/science majors take organic chem. 1st year instead of sophomore year as standard elsewhere… ask Prof Rablin, he may have done it as a freshman himself). </p>
<p>BTW, any major, as long as they demonstrate facility with the sciences are fair game for pre-med. In fact, many med schools look favorably on non-science majors... especially the very top like HMS and Hopkins.</p>
<p>Okay, I can't just read and suffer, or laugh, silently anymore. Not that people shouldn't voice their feelings, and not that Swat doesn't have negatives - but a few comments on this thread seem woefully lopsided and just plain odd.
I'm breaking silence to check in with a couple of appreciative notes:
Tommybill, spot on. It's interesting to wonder why someone would choose Swat if they perceive grade deflation to be a bad thing.<br>
HC Alum, your comments are always thoughtful, and notably generous to Swarthmore - escpecially considering, well, you know. :) Thank you for keeping an eye on the Swat boards and providing some very welcome sense and factual input!
Forgetmenots, you're generous with your time (even though you're no longer C/NC now), and your enthusiastic sharing of information is good to see. Your love for Swat seems quite genuine and others of us who love the school always appreciate that. Thank you. Still, you haven't been there forever; many goofy shirts have made their way around campus over the years. I'm glad HC Alum mentioned that shirt - and yes, I can vouch for its existence - because it's a good reminder that despite their intensity most Swatties DO have a sense of humor.
(Don't make me roll out my credentials. Blood runs Garnet, here.)</p>
<p>From the Swarthmore Guide for Applying to Medical School: </p>
<p>
[quote]
*What grade point average is necessary to become a serious contender for admission to medical school? *</p>
<p>Nationally, the average AMCAS GPA in 2006 for matriculating students was 3.64. The average AMCAS GPA for accepted Swarthmore applicants was 3.53. Our experience at Swarthmore is that a B+ (3.3) average is a solid basis for applying.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A 3.5 GPA at Swarthmore is only slightly above average. The very high med school acceptance rates from Swarthmore suggest that the school's academic rigor is not an insurmountable obstacle.</p>
<p>Having said that, there should be no illusion that Swarthmore isn't a demanding undergraduate academic experience. The faculty and the students have high expectations of each other. As a result, Swarthmore is somewhat unique in the breadth of academic engagement across the entire student body. This is one of the things that Swarthmore students and alums value highly. However, Swarthmore is not the place to go if you are looking to coast through four years with a high GPA.</p>
<p>On a lighter note and with regard to the t-shirt issue.</p>
<p>My D came home this Christmas with a t-shirt that read:</p>
<p>“Swarthmore, guilt without sex.” As the father I pretended to not
notice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As the father I pretended to not notice.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have also found that being fat, dumb, and happy is a useful state of mind for fathers!</p>
<p>I have a Swat t-shirt which says:
Academics
Friends
Sleep
Pick 2
I thought it was humorous. A little self-deprecating humor never hurt anyone. Sort of making fun of the "buzz" about Swat in the outside world. My kid never had to choose.</p>
<p>I am well aware of the fact that you don't need a science major to go to medical school. Neither of my children are looking for easy ways out. I think that it is discouraging to have such a tough grading system at Swarthmore. My child at the other school took demanding courses and is enrolled at a very highly distinguished graduate school. But the grading system at his larger university seemed MUCH fairer, and did not come with all of the angst and bells and whistles that Swarthmore has. And his campus overall had a great fun atmosphere.</p>
<p>My Swat student is very well-connected at Swarthmore in terms of ECs. There is something that I can't quite put my finger on as to the difference between Swat vs some other campuses. Some kind of fun spirit that I see elsewhere, that I think is valuable in college life. Swarthmore seems very serious. </p>
<p>I'm not talking about "party schools." It's really something that I can't figure out. Maybe a lot of LACs are like this.</p>
<p>The medical school idea anyhow has been put to rest permanently. It really was the premed courses there that changed things. That was our experience. Obviously our family is in a minority, and the happy stories otherwise abound from others.</p>
<p>
[quote]
angst and bells and whistles that Swarthmore has
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Every college has some sort of "campus culture". At Swarthmore there certainly is a "misery poker" culture - it is socially acceptable, and pretty much expected to whine about the work load. My other child was at Stanford, with its "laid back" "duck mentality" where whining is unacceptable, and everyone is happy. I think both worked very hard, and both have very respectable GPA. (I think my Swarthmore child will end up with actually slightly higher GPA than the Stanford sibling.)</p>
<p>Although for an outsider Stanford may seem like a happier place, I think it might be not a bad thing to be allowed to whine sometimes ;-)...</p>
<p>HarrietMWelsch: Thanks. I check in for completely selfish reasons though. :)
1st, as HC is down the road, I have to make sure that, if any comparisons are made, they are at least fair as, well, you know :) . 2nd, I have to admit that the Swat forum is the most entertaining on CC. The histrionics here ("I inflicted an education on myself?", ect) are without compare and, when I have time to decompress, I’m almost guaranteed a smile by checking this site. Also, jousting and poking a good guy like interested dad from time to time can be a guilty pleasure.</p>
<p>I think it’s fun to whine sometimes and I got a kick out of those t-shirts as well but I think changing clothes on occasion is healthy too… it keeps kids more truthful about themselves and humble. Perhaps if Swat were a little more athletic and mainstream, it could borrow a simple (uninspired but practical) motto used by peers… “Just do it”.</p>
<p>ID: GPAs are most likely a bell-curve so if the average is 3.24, a grade of 3.5 is much different in terms of percentile rank. </p>
<p>That being said, I know several HC classmates who had GPAs of 3.3-3.4 (I helped with their applications) and are currently fine as MDs, 2 of whom are surgical sub-specialists at <em>thee</em> residency for their disciplines. Swat should be no different. </p>
<p>Swat parent: Med school adcoms don’t view non-science majors as “taking the easy road”. If you show facility with the sciences (doing well on MCATS and pre-med reqs) and are also able to excel in a major outside of the sciences, that is something very impressive. In addition, who's to say that the sciences are harder than the humanities (my science GPA was much higher than my overall cause writing about "The Sorrows of Young Werther" and "Bleak House" to me was more painful than biophysics and organic chem given how different people's brains are wired)?</p>
<p>For the same reasons why students shouldn’t choose a college based on what they think others feel, a student shouldn’t choose a major based on what they think the med adcom wants… because the lack of enthusiasm comes out in the all important interview. I’m far more impressed by someone following their passion and internal compass (and being able to explain/weave how their anthro/religion/poli sci degree/ect…) meshes with a medical career than another uninspired bio major who only picked that major just because. If you have a passion in the sciences, then that’s great too. </p>
<p>Tip: Many non science majors at Swat and Haverford take organic chem at Harvard/Brown/(ect) Summer school cause it's less painful and the grading more generous.</p>
<p>As I volunteer my inside perspective to help Haverford pre-meds (and I volunteer my friends time too from time to time) I think it best to stop here… don’t want to help the “enemy camp” too much but I hope what I wrote helps some. ;)</p>
<p>My interviewer majored in French Literature and ended up going to Med School afterwards. She now owns her own practice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
ID: GPAs are most likely a bell-curve so if the average is 3.24, a grade of 3.5 is much different in terms of percentile rank.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I believe that the average (or median) GPA at Swarthmore is currently higher than 3.24. That figure is quite old.</p>
<p>I’m sure the ave GPA is a little shy of 3.3. The higher pre-med GPA quoted is based on what students report to <strong>AMCAS</strong> that includes classes taken after college such as with the post-bac where grades are higher.</p>
<p>The 3.24 GPA that's been kicking around for some time is the overall average or median for the entire Swarthmore student body.</p>
<p>Some Cons:
[ul]
[<em>]Food on campus is bad.
[</em>]The heightened campus-wide diversity does not result in assimilation and culture mixing as much as it does the formation of cliques.
[<em>]Philadelphia is a toilet IMO.
[</em>]The honors program is too rigid to account for everyone's preferences. This would not be a problem if honors students didn't receive preferential treatment from professors hoping to mold people into the next great academics... in their image of what the next great academics should be.
[/ul]</p>
<p>
[quote]
The heightened campus-wide diversity does not result in assimilation and culture mixing as much as it does the formation of cliques.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Compared to what? Some mythical ideal or the real world?</p>
<p>In the real world, most colleges and universities have "theme housing", i.e. racially segregated housing which elevates "cliques" to a higher order of magnitude.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The honors program is too rigid to account for everyone's preferences.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The percentage of Swarthmore students graduating in the Honors Program as been at all-time record levels for the past seven graduating classes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Compared to what? Some mythical ideal or the real world?
[/quote]
Compared to my high school? Compared to nearly everywhere else I've been or heard of.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The percentage of Swarthmore students graduating in the Honors Program as been at all-time record levels for the past seven graduating classes:</p>
[/quote]
</a></p>
<p>Excellent, maybe they're recruiting people they can more easily railroad into the honors program which, of course, means they're bringing in a less diverse group of kids every year, from the perspective of academic preference.</p>
<p>Anyway, you didn't even go to Swarthmore. You don't really know first-hand how any of this works. Those cons I listed are legitimate cons, and not just in my opinion, but in the opinions of a lot of people who actually go to or went to Swarthmore. You don't have to agree, but you'll understand that I think your refutations to why they are, in my opinion, negative aspects of the Swarthmore experience really miss the mark.</p>
<p>I see. </p>
<p>So your contention is that Swarthmore is more cliquish than "virtually everywhere else I've ever been or heard of"? Even though many of the places you've heard of have racially segregated dorms.</p>
<p>And that the Honors Program is at historic levels of participation only because Swarthmore is recruiting little androids who don't know any better and that, if they were only really smart, they'd know the Honors Program is really a fraud?</p>
<p>BTW, how can a voluntary program be a "con"? If it's not for you, don't do it. I take it you think Swarthmore should do away with the Honors Program?</p>
<p>AE:</p>
<p>Are you a current Swarthmore student?</p>