@cypresspat Is it fair to say your kid’s choice is between going as an intending engineer major to Cornell as a full pay vs. going to OSU? Our kid was faced with a choice of going as a full pay non-STEM intending major to Stanford (the only tipsy top college he applied to) and as a full pay and CA resident to Berkeley and UCLA vs. paying ZERO to less than $10K cost per year to an out of state Honors College (University of South Carolina and another one). In our decision-making process, I took how I felt out of the equation mainly because I was very much opposed by my wife, but essentially, before our kid got accepted to Stanford, I was ready to persuade my kid and wife that our kid should go to Honors College for almost free rather than attend UCLA/Berkeley, but after he got into Stanford, I left it up to him to choose. Besides, my wife was totally for sending him to Stanford as a full pay, and I was all for avoiding any big argument with my wife over this issue. For me, I could see both pros and cons and would have been fine with either choice. When either choice is pretty good or not bad, I really don’t care that much – I am that type of person. The fact is any choice desired and made by our son was pretty much ok by me.
However – and this is the real point I wanted to make – one thing you should keep in mind about your son attending a RICH college is that there will be more internship opportunities where the RICH college will pay stipends. For example, our kid is interning abroad during this summer in a program which accepts around 20 kids from all across the USA, and almost all of these 20 student interns are from WEALTHY colleges because I am guessing only wealthy colleges were willing to provide $6,000 summer stipends that were needed for these students for airfare, lodgings, foods and spending money etc. Therefore, what I am saying is: I also freaking hate to pay $70K plus per year for college education, but I also think what you are paying for is more than a college education. I absolutely agree with you that your kid will get just as good college engineering education at OSU as at Cornell (I went there). Also, something my kid told me after his freshman year at Stanford stuck with me. He told me “It’s easy for me to be motivated because almost all of kids at Stanford are highly motivated kids.” When I heard that, I had TWO thoughts. One, I was thinking “That’s really great that he’s surrounded by so many motivated kids.” Two, I was also thinking “Wouldn’t he be motivated no matter where he went to college?”
Anyway, our kid was able to pursue some very interesting ECs during school year on top of his classes; in fact, I would say what impressed me about Stanford, based on what I could tell from my kid’s experiences there, was not the classes but the type of ECs in which he was able to participate. For example, he was able to participate in a group marketing research project and make a group presentation in front of top company officers in San Francisco and put together a tech conference between China and USA etc.
Essentially, I really believe it’s not worth the monetary difference between what you learn in classes at Harvard/Stanford/Princeton/Cornell vs. what you learn in classes at University of South Carolina. In fact, I don’t think it’s more than $15,000 per year worth difference, if I had to put a price on it.
“For the schools that end out around 200k, my DS would be required to contribute 10k/year from loans/work/savings. For the 100k range (state Flagship) my DS would come out with no loans.”
Not sure why you would saddle your kid with 40k in debt when you say you can afford 200k (even 300k). You are disincentivising him to choose any college other than OSU, which you made up your mind that he should go there.
Maybe I’m in the minority here but for my goal as a parent is to give my kids the best college education I can afford and to make sure they do not have any loans when they graduate from college. I’m not going to punish them (with loans) for choosing a better fit, more expensive college.
I’d add that if your REAL concern is that you are comfortable paying full cost for an elite (Ivy level, MIT, etc.) but NOT for other private schools or out-of-state publics – then SAY SO. That is a perfectly legitimate restriction for a parent to place, based on perceived value of the respective colleges. (And it doesn’t really matter whether your perception of relative value is accurate or not – again - your money, your rules).
And it really makes the application process a lot easier. There is no need to worry about matches & safeties if the student is certain to be admitted to their in-state public and it will meet that student’s needs.
Again, you don’t need to “convince” your kid of anything – you just need to tell him clearly and honestly what the rules are in terms of the funding you are willing to provide.
@websensation - My D’s public flagship has stipends for study away and for their internships at school as well. That isn’t a “wealthy” college phenomena.
There are incredibly bright and motivated students at all kinds of schools.
@websensation Thank you for your really thoughtful and helpful post. I agree that there would be more to attending Cornell than just what he learns as an engineering student. And so does he, which is why he wants to go there. He absolutely understands what $200k is, and he is a very frugal kid. We can’t even get him to order anything expensive at a restaurant. He says he’ll do that when he earns the money himself. I know that there is no way in hell he would let us pay that amount of money if he didn’t feel it was worth it.
Even so, if he is in a position to choose six or so months from now, it will not be fun to watch.
Our oldest hit the GMAT jackpot and is in an elite t10 business school right now. He works his tail off but when he plays hard, it is with billionaires in the Hamptons. We do not own a home in the Hamptons. His new friends do. And he even flip flops between OSU (his alma mater) and Cornell for his beloved little brother.
I seem to be on a sine wave of indecision already on this. I think of the look on his face (if/when) he learns he is going to Cornell. I also think of the look in MY face when I learn he is going to OSU and I start planning my retirement.
We all make enormous sacrifices for our kids, their entire lives. My husband and I seem willing to do this, and I would not have predicted it, I guess because I never expected any of my kids to get a shot at such a high caliber school.
But I confess…my motivation is really to see him happy. I have no worries about his future. He’s just one of those people who will always find his way. He just came out that way on day one.
He knows that college as an engineering major will be brutal wherever he goes. But he also knows there is much more to learn and experience than in just the classroom. He has squeezed every bit of learning and experience out of his high school and wants to do the same at his college. He knows the depth is the same at any reasonable colleges. But he breadth is better at a school like Cornell, or Stanford, or (fill in blank).
And I know that the happy feeling of bringing that kid to the school of his dreams will last about a week. And I appear to value that feeling at around $200k. Can’t explain it. It just is.
@austinmshauri I am not literally trying to bribe him. I am trying to give him a picture of other ways that money could be used to puff up the prospect of going to OSU. He is unbelievably lucky to be able to go there, but it may not feel that way. It could if he sees other ways the money could be spent to his benefit.
@austinmshauri We didn’t tell him he could go wherever he wants and be full pay, if needed. There are a ton of private schools NOT worth full pay, especially for an engineering major. But he doesn’t have any of those schools in his list.
Agree that this needs to be made clear before applications go out, so that you will not be in the position of breaking any promises or implied promises in spring of his senior year.
Don’t be like that other parent who wrote that “money is not a factor in the decision” when the student made the application list but then tried to force him to go to a less expensive college after getting into an expensive top choice.
No, spending $300k on your undergrad, which is what you’re looking at for four years at Cornell, is not very frugal or frugal at all. There is nothing wrong with spending $300k on undergrad if you have the funds and are willing to spend it. Anyone who thinks spending the median price of a new home on an undergrad education is compatible with being frugal lacks any conception of what the term means.
@roethlisburger It depends on what you value. Even frugal people are happy to spend money on things they highly value. My son sees value in going to a college which has precisely what he wants in his major field of study, and other things which our flagship cannot offer. And since he can articulate those things, they are non-trivial. They matter to him, and we agree that they are valuable.
Lack of frugality is not the same as being okay with spending money on something where you get what you paid for.
@cypresspat I think your last few posts are very thoughtful. Everyone’s advice seems to be helping you quite a bit. I will say this - we let S19 apply to full price privates. Just like you, we were ok with the price in theory but wanted to see where else he would get in so we could compare final costs of each school. In the end, when faced with two very strong options that were $25,000 less per year, it was way harder than we expected to go through with accepting a spot at a full priced school. We were comparing apples to apples like you will be. The schools in play were all top LACs. His experience at each would be very similar. Even after a final trip to three schools and his clear preference for one of the full-priced ones, we sat on the decision for two weeks. It was stressful. No one in the house wanted to bring it up. S19 was tearful and understood the price difference but had made it clear he really, really wanted the expensive school. We asked him to write up a list of reasons and they couldn’t just be “fit” in terms of vibe or location. He did a lot of research and gave us good information. His attitude was also something we took into consideration. Like your S, he never asks for anything and he’s super frugal with our money and his. He was humble and never acted like he deserved to go to any particular school.
In the end, we allowed him to accept his place at Bowdoin and, now a few months later, we are content and happy with the decision. We received our first bill and, yikes, it’s a big check to write. We hope he makes the most of everything offered to him once he gets to school.
So beware - if you let your S apply to the expensive schools, I doubt it will be a super easy decision come April no matter how you’re feeling now. I have a friend who is sending her D to a full priced private and the D will be a senior now. They are happy with her experience but didn’t choose the same for their S who is younger. Every time they wrote a check, they wondered if it was worth it. Every family is different, of course, so if you will have any resentments (like if paying full price means pushing out retirement or any other lifestyle changes you are not 100% ok with), then I would be thinking very hard about spending the money.
This is a classic value choice that most families face: Is the college worth it? A $200K difference pays for business or (mostly) medical school, or helps a lot in retirement, or is an a nice down payment on a home.
After all of the visits and presentations (which seemed to be the mostly the same) , we found the major differentiator in the better engineering (where curriculum is essentially the same) is the quality of student projects. The top programs had some really amazing student stuff. Drones, solar cars and planes, submarines, and even exotic materials. They tended to be multi-disciplinary. The lower rated programs were a lot less sophisticated and simple.
We had a similar choice for our ChemE student; except Michigan was the in-state college. Only 6 schools are higher rated, he was rejected by one, accepted by one, and didn’t like the other 4. He actually wanted to go to a full-pay lower rated school, but that wasn’t worth the money in his parents’ opinion.
After visiting, I think that only MIT, Stanford and CalTech are worth the difference for an engineer over the top 20. Our son didn’t like MIT or CalTech because of the pressure and stress. . Best of luck to the OP, and it’s good to have choices. You really won’t be able to evaluate the costs until later anyway; even upper middle class families get some FA at the elite schools.
@TooOld4School Please don’t say that upper mid families can get aid. Many times that is not true even at elites. We have a handful of friends paying full price at Cornell. (I mention that because that’s the only private elite that the OP is considering). I think @cypresspat has run the NPC and will be full pay.
A car person may highly value a Lamborghini. I wouldn’t consider them frugal. If you go to the NSF Web site, Table 7. shows the number of PhDs awarded in a particular engineering major at each institution. The number of PhDs awarded can be a rough proxy for the breadth and depth of research being conducted in a particular field of study. The NSF data allows you to drill down to the R&D spending in each field at a college. That’s another good measure for the depth and breadth of research in a particular field. Objectively, OSU is at least a top 25 engineering program, although it doesn’t have the same prestige in non-engineering circles as an Ivy.
https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf19301/data
https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingBySource&ds=herd
@homerdog. Thanks for your understanding post. We don’t expect an easy year, regardless of what happens. He will get into tOSU, unless he manages to commit a felony or something equally stupid In the next month or two. He will only apply to other schools he is certain he would attend over tOSU; for 95% of his very large spreadsheet, most schools were a ‘no’ to that question… tOSU is his safety and match. All others will be reaches.
So either this winter will be a series of face kicks as the rejections roll in. Or, if he gets into one of the reaches, he will wring his hands over that until May 1, I am sure. I can’t even imagine the angst if he gets into 2. But, once he decides, he will never look back. He is wired that way.
He sees no reason to apply to another safety. He would never choose it over OSU and he doesn’t need the nod early in the year.
I am glad your son chose Bowdoin. I am an alum of a New England LAC, and a huge believer in that type of college experience. My son wouldn’t even look at my alma mater, even before he decided on engineering. But it is a unique experience and hard to explain why it is special to those who did not experience it.
I think just the fact that it feels right to him is huge. There are no do-overs here. He will be counting the minutes to go there, be jumping out of his skin as you pull up to the campus, and will never, ever forget what you did for him.
My oldest (not the kind soul my youngest is) looked us right in the eye the day he graduated from college and thanked us for the greatest gift he could ask for - a degree from his dream school and zero debt. Since then, he has never missed an opportunity to thank us. Or call on a Sunday.
Depends on the definition of “upper middle class”. The definition commonly used on these forums may be higher SES than the definition in other contexts.
@cypresspat - I have to say I’m confused by your posts. On the one hand you seem very comfortable with your son’s application strategy of state flagship + reach colleges, and willing to pay the premium for the elite reach colleges if he is accepted.
On the other hand you are looking for ways to “convince” your son of the benefits of the state flagship – or at least you were at the beginning of this thread.
Have your own feelings morphed as you have considered the input from the online discussions?
Or is there still an internal conflict that mean that come next spring, you will be looking for ways to nudge your son toward the state public flagship choice even in the face of admission to $$$$$ dream college?
Have them look at the professors cvs in the departments of interest. Many times the “so called” firepower of the elite schools are filled with profs that attended the very schools they scoff. And the r1 flagships have profs from the schools they desire. It’s very revealing and opposite of what you’d expect many times. It’s always a big mixture and international profs too. The students aren’t the key. It’s the faculty.
@privatebanker Completely agree. Which is why my son chose the schools he did for his list. Combination of the subspecialties of the faculty members, their recent publications history, and the multi-institutional grant/research programs they are part of. He read a few recent pubs (or tried to) of the faculty from each school he zeroed in on. He rejected schools where too many profs haven’t published in years. He looked at the size and type of their labs. The elite schools tend to (and definitely not always) have the things he was looking for. With some exceptions among large state schools, but they are equivalent in his mind to tOSU. U Michigan is a monster in that regard. But, tOSU and U Michigan can’t be in the same sentence, usually.
@calmom. Everything is relative. If my son’s GPA/test scores were lower, he’d be sweating getting j to OSU big time right now, along with many of his friends. But his stats put him in play for highly ranked schools. I don’t want him to feel like he got the booby prize if he ‘has to go’ to OSU. Because that would not be because of anything OSU does or does not offer, it would because it is not Cornell. Buuuuuutttttttt…if we could show him the things he COULD get if he went to OSU that he could NOT get at Cornell because we do have some financial line we won’t cross, then perhaps we could hedge against his being disappointed and starting college feeling like he somehow lost. Like I said, everything is relative. His brother sweated getting into OSU and would have donated a limb if he needed to. But my youngest is standing in a very different place. Chances are high he will only even get into OSU; we want that to be embraced as the fantastic news that it will be.