It really depends what the kid wants to do with his life. If he wants to become POTUS one day, maybe don’t go to OSU.
@OHMomof2 et. al. Yes, tOSU has become far more competitive than it was even five years ago. But, 50% of our HS seniors apply to OSU and roughly 50% get in. They go by the numbers for high stats kids, and he is firmly in the upper right ‘sea of green’ in naviance. If rejected, he would be the first rejection among about 500 kids from our HS with stays lower than his. His margin from anywhere near where kids get rejected for ANY major is about .6 GPA and 100 SAT points. So, it makes no sense to make decisions around an extremely remote possibility. He doesn’t believe in applying to schools he would never go to. His Plan B would be a gap year working in his construction job hat he loves. Plan B would never be to go to one of the schools he eliminated from consideration. Which is a bunch!
Are you done with visits at this point? How many schools will be end up applying to?
If he gets shut out, would he go into construction as a career and forego study of chemical engineering in college, or would he apply the following year to a less selective set of colleges (presumably including those which he eliminated this time)?
I don’t think there is much point in going down the rabbit hole of “what if” speculation. One value of a gap year is that it is a learning experience in itself, and one never knows where it leads. Often it can lead to a change of focus or goals.
We are talking about a smart, capable kid who views OSU as a safety he is willing to attend. If he doesn’t get in, he will still be smart & capable. He will survive and he will figure things out.
Posters may not be understanding the point I am making for various reasons (including my failure to make the point clearly), so I am posting again. When it comes to summer internships abroad (I am talking about internships abroad specifically), kids from every and any university is free to apply to certain internships, but here are the reasons I found out through my kid’s own experience at one of top private colleges, why certain ABROAD internship opportunities may be easier to obtain for the kids who attend these universities.
- Many abroad internship opportunities require some sort of official understanding between the abroad organization and the U.S. university, and the departments at top private universities seem to have many of these programs as part of their departmental summer internships.
- Practically speaking, even if you get one of the above internship abroad, it's very difficult for a student to go intern abroad without some sort of financial stipend to pay for airfare, lodging, food and spending money. The abroad organizations often do NOT pay anything to their summer interns, and therefore, unless the student's own university is willing to pay for summer internship stipend, often amounting to $6,000 USD, the student will not be able to intern abroad. Out of 20 students interning abroad at a specific program where my kid is interning, I found out that almost all of these interns are from top private colleges with a lot of money. I am not saying, I repeat, that students who attend public colleges have less opportunities to intern. What I am saying is that private colleges with a lot of money appear to be more than willing to pay stipends which facilitates all the parties involved in the student's internship. Is this potential benefit worth the difference in the total costs between two types of colleges? Probably not to most people.
Now, what I posted is inapplicable if the internship position abroad pays enough money to cover everything, and you don’t need to get a stipend from your college. Then, theoretically, any kid from any college will be able to apply to and obtain this internship position.
Doing a GAP year when you are a STEM major is not the best idea. So much of STEM especially engineering is built on learning stuff each semester or year that taking a year off can be very difficult as you can lose knowledge.
@cypresspat I can’t give you advice on whether to pay for private elite colleges for your son, but I will say this. Have the kid apply to OSU and Miami University. Both are in-state and he should get into at least one and probably both. Then deal with the private elite college.
In reality the college app process for you and your son will end up being much more simpler than 98% of us. See most of us can’t be full-pay and therefore we have to fit a college academically and financially for our kids. When you have a high stats kid then that actually means much more work. You apply to more places hoping to get that merit money. And because merit money is in ranges that means a school may or may not be affordable for your child. My D19 applied to 17 schools that ranged all over the board. She end up with some good offers and some we were disappointed in along with a couple of rejections. In the end it was a lot of work for D19 to get everything done and work and deal with her HS classes.
For your son it sounds like he could apply to Cornell and OSU and be done. A little advice on Cornell. If you do decide that you are willing to pay for Cornell then have him apply ED so he has a better chance to get in.
@websensation. It really depends on the college. My engineering kid at Michigan just did a study abroad and now is doing an international internship. He got the later on his own. My daughter at Beloit is in Indonesia (today is her birthday but yesterday in Indonesia… Lol) through a grant she applied to through school. Michigan has many ways to go abroad and some of them are paid through the school.
I have a high stat kid (99% ACT, 4.0, very deep ECs) that is attending a well regarded state flagship this fall. And believe it or not, he’s not even doing engineering. He had the option of a number of other well regarded private schools. some at a slightly higher price tag with generous merit and some with a much higher prices tag. He did get an unexpectedly nice merit package from the flagship. We are also full pay, but we can’t actually afford our EFC (as confirmed by an independent financial advisor).
One thing I wanted to mention about your kid finding his “people” somewhere like this. The undergrad population at OSU is something like 45K. 25% of that student body’s population is HIGHER than the 75% of their incoming test scores/GPA. That means over 10K undergrads there HAVE elite stats. And that’s across the boards, not just in engineering. I can’t comment on OSU’s exact engineering stats, but at U of MN TC (which is a similar school) the 25%-75% for the school of engineering are 30-34 ACT. That means 25% of engineering students have at least an ACT 34. That’s a wordy way of saying, your kid can find plenty of his people at OSU. Whether or not he does engineering at the end of the day. The difference between a kid with a 28 ACT and a 33 ACT might just be the ability to afford a prep class anyway. There is no need to apologize or feel sorry for your kid if this is the school. Truly. Plenty of those high stat kids cannot consider full pay options at all. My kid definitely had disappointments through the application process but very quickly moved on. Elite schools have not at all cornered the market on elite students. They can be found anywhere. I assume OSU has an honors program as well.
So I suspect part of the reason people (including me) are a bit puzzled by your post is you are talking about letting your kid take on significant debt to attend a more expensive school and you mentioned sacrificing for your kids. If you are truly set for retirement, emergency funds, have minimal/no debt, etc and have the money, had your financial advisor conversation to confirm, spend it. I would not let him take out more loans than the federal limits for an undergrad degree. Even if he sticks with engineering. Wanting to help your kid put a down payment on a house, help with a wedding, set up education trusts for grandchildren, and having kids not worry about aging parents needing care are also worthy uses of money. That’s reason enough to set a budget if you feel you want to do so. I think it’s good just be clear on the front end. What we said to our kid is we’d like to be near the price point of the flagship. Apply to some reachier schools that may throw merit your way and see what happens if you want. We will evaluate a the end. We were open to some give for a truly better opportunity.
I also wanted to add both my spouse and I graduated from an engineering school at a flagship. I currently work independently. But my spouse works with/manages MIT grads every day. In the real world, elite grads are mixing with the flagship grads all the time. We had great internship and placement opportunities. It obviously didn’t limit your other kid either.
So I really like the following quote (thanks PB) and what was what ultimately led kid to pick a flagship. Even in liberal arts. Faculty positions are VERY competitive at large well regarded universities. Especially in decent size cities or in metro areas. We were considerably more impressed with the faculty at my kid’s chosen flagship than we were at the privates at +10-50K the price. My kid was also personally wooed by faculty which helped. Grad school MAY be in the cards for this kid. He is graduating debt free and we may in a position to help a bit with that. Always a good option to keep open for a smart, studious kid. Anyway - really digging into department faculty and vibe was very educational. At some rural elite LACs we were actually quite unimpressed with some of the faculty.
Malcolm Gladwell actually has an interesting 20 minute video out about benefits of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. I think if you go to you tube and search “malcolm gladwell zeitgeist” you will hit upon it.
Got wordier than intended here! Good luck!
Why not just be honest with your son? Why be tricky and try to convince him to do what you want? If you want your son to be honest with you, you need to be honest with him. You seem to want to get credit for being able to pay his way at any school but you don’t want to actually follow through and pay. Dad up and tell him you think OSU is the best value school and has a great chemE program. In light of that, you feel that a portion of the extra money could be better spent on other opportunities for him and your retirement. Please don’t let your son think you will pay for Cornell or UCLA if you won’t.
We were less educated during the beginning of the process with our son. We left it at we would evaluate his options after the dust settled and determine, partially based on finances, which school he could attend. Merit aid was a factor. A need based only school like Cornell would have been rough, so I get that. We might have vetoed that choice.
I presume Oho State has an honors program that he’d be a good candidate for? Even though our state flagship is high prestige (UNC), my high stats D18 was much more excited about attending when she was invited to their honors program b/c she felt like it separated her from others in her school also accepted (just being frank). She especially liked the idea of the honors dorm as a first year to meet other highly motivated learners. So maybe being in the honors program plus your bribes will be enough?
(My D ended up at an LAC where we are paying 2x the money – top of our budget. It’s a GREAT fit for her, but I am still wistful about the $$, and I am fully intending to bribe our S21 to attend our state’s flagship engineering program in a couple of years. He knows we will ‘sweeten the pot’ (used car and funded summers are at top of list) and I think we have 50/50 shot. State schools are so good for engineering it’s hard to justify private, IMHO.
Anyway, not sure how helpful this was, but I feel your pain!
Honors programs within top state schools are a great alternative to the Top 20 universities. I did state school undergrad as a NMF for free and then paid my own way to Ivy MBA.
Ivy opportunities are better than the state schools. Top consulting firms are crawling around Ivies but tip-toe into some of the top state schools. UVa, UNC, Berkeley, U-M, UT, UCLA are exceptions. But like Gladwell said, if you perform at a high level at the state U, you’ll get a very good job. Do well there and you’ll be set. It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and therefore set it straight with the son. My parents told me right before my MIT interview that we were cancelling and state U was a better (i.e., cheaper) option.
@sevmom. Well, I am a liiiitle afraid to say here in CC, but, first, yes. Visits are done. Soccer season started two days ago (we won a national tournament which is blowing all of our minds at the moment - just had to share that). He learned something super important about most of the schools that he visited. Elite schools have a lot of elitism. Not all involved, of course, but enough to bother him. (We KNEW he would react that way, but, ya know, the ‘rents are idiots).
So most schools were eliminated either because he felt the elitism vibe was too strong, or, he would not choose it over tOSU. Except for Cornell. Does Cornell have a strong elitism vibe to it? Dunno… he barely talked to anyone there and focused on the engineering facilities and the info about this one institute he is obsessed with there. He was relieved to learn he could combine his specific desired engineering major with this one minor that he wants; that was unclear on their website. Cornell has precisely what he wants in terms of what the faculty study, the curriculum emphasis he wants, and the minor/concentration thingy he can do. It was like Mr. Bluebird was singing on his shoulder when the dots connected for him. Honestly, no other school had a chance after that. And he probably walked into all of the others with his arms mentally folded, and all attitude with ‘you think you’re all that, but you’re not. I was at Cornell last week. Show me what you got, and it had better be good.’
So, gulp, plan is EA at tOSU (if same as last year and he gets app in by August 15, as planned, he should hear by Mid-nov), and, big gulp, ED Cornell. Should hear by mid-dec they say, and they claimed to not be big on deferrals, so an up or down vote is expected.
He has been read his Miranda Rights, over and over. He understand the risks and knows that I will not tell him ‘I told ya so’ but I will be thinking it if something goes wrong. He’s good with this plan. He knows he has to pour heart and soul into his Cornell essay, which he thinks will be easy ‘cause he sure knows the answer to the ‘why Cornell’ question! And he is unable to answer that question for any college other than tOSU right now.
Be gentle with me folks, I have had to listen to way too many admissions pitches this month and I think I deserve some kindness. No one should have to do that many in 30 days.
Now, am I 100% convinced some other school won’t catch his eye this fall? No. Totally possible, especially once he is back at school and he has a new crop of STEM teachers chirping in his ear. Or I can totally see some sort of locker room pact during hockey season. We have FIVE 1500+ SAT seniors who are all planning on an engineering major. That is an entire hockey line and they could form some twisted plot to take over a club team somewhere at a nice little LAC and get a great education, to boot. They are 17 and can be that dumb sometimes. But not unheard of for teammates to seek college admissions together. My son and his defensive pair (literally identical academic stats, down to the SAT scores and GPA to 3 digits) have skated together since they were 6. If they spoke entire sentences in front of me (they don’t), they would finish each other’s sentences. If the Cornell club team coach is listening, i’ve got a ready made D pair for you. Hello…Cornell club hockey coach…are you there…?
@ucbalumnus Will he reapply next year in chem engineering? I would guess, yes, at this point. But my two older kids sure surprised the heck out of us within a bunch of 18 month periods…so, who knows?
@calmom wow, what a great post. Thank you. I hadn’t thought of that. While I am certain that the quality of my son’s relationship with me has never, ever, crossed his mind, it will someday. And you are totally right. My mouth is now zipped except for the obnoxious cheerleader that NO ONE can beat me at.
Our oldest pulled off a TOTAL Doug Flutie Hail Mary pass for grad school. So when my husband and I are having one of those doubting moments, we remind ourselves of that lightening strike.
Thank you…grateful for your (and your daughter’s) wisdom.
@websensation The cost differential, for my son’s two choices, will be approximately $50k a year. That would pay for the travel and living expenses for him and several of his friends. So, perhaps tOSU doesn’t financially support such things (it does, by the way); but since tuition for full pay kids is around $11k, that kind of makes sense.
And to complicate matters, my children (and husband) are all EU citizens. That opens up WAY MORE doors to internships for US college kids because employers know there would be no visa issues if they decide to try to hire an intern (which is generally the idea for having them in the first place).
So…my son’s internship opportunities are actually better for him, if Europe is the goal, that is, outside of the constraints of any college. Lack of Financial constraints makes that even better for him. Again, $50k a year price difference can buy a lot of travel and a lot of living expenses. That’s a kind of freedom that even my stubborn 17 year old can get excited about. Heck, I may go with him.
@MusakParent Hi. I never said that my kid will be taking on significant debt. Or any debt. We are fortunately fine with full pay at Cornell. Would I like to keep that extra $200k? Yes. I am not independently wealthy. But that $ was earmarked for our kids’ education. The other two didn’t use nearly all of theirs, so, it is all sitting there for #3. He is fully aware of how ridiculously blessed he is on that one. He thanks us daily. Well, weekly.
and I have ZERO problem with tOSU. Our oldest went there and has hit the occupational jackpot so far. But my youngest has VERY specific goals in mind for what he wants to study in college, and Cornell has it. Spot on. tOSU actually has a few features, academically, which are darn close to Cornell, so good that no other school has caught his fancy as much.
And…for sure…Cornell has the sexiness of Not being the school that every strong student at our HS attends. We send 75 kids to tOSU every year. We send 10 to an Ivy and maybe 5 to one of the other top schools. So, there’s a mystique that he’s not immune to. But it doesn’t have magical powers over him. He got some light interest from a coach at a VERY strong engineering school (not known for its hockey team) and he waved it off because it wasn’t as strong as Cornell in his narrow band of interest. His brother nearly passed out. At that point we were convinced that this is less about prestige and more about the colleges having what he wants academically.
Isn’t that what kids are supposed to be judging schools on?
@ultimom I don’t think you’ve understood my position. We haven’t been untruthful with my son. At all.
@AlmostThere2018 Ya know, the honors program thing isn’t doing much for him. He knows that he will spend most of his time with other engineering students, all very qualified students, by definition. He expects his rear-end to be kicked at tOSU just as well as it would be at Cornell. The only honors college benefit he sees of any value is the early class registrations. The rest? Meh…other things are more important to him. He has to apply for honors (or scholars) to be eligible for this one scholarship for high demand majors, which would bring his annual tuition down to $2k, which is just ridiculously low. But if it weren’t for that, he’d probably pass. And I am not even sure he would get into it…very competitive and he’s not Mr. Zillion EC’s. He’s not into playing the field with his activities; he’s kind of an EC serial monogamist.
@cypresspat “Hi. I never said that my kid will be taking on significant debt. Or any debt. We are fortunately fine with full pay at Cornell.”
Earlier in the thread you actually did say that your DS would be required to pay 10k/yr (40k total) if he attended a 200k plus college (i.e. Cornell). Now you are saying that you will full pay his education?!
I guess you don’t need to convince him to attend tOSU since you seem fine paying for Cornell.
Good luck.