Convincing our son to go to the state flagship

@socaldad2002 I don’t recall ever writing that. And that amount sounds really weird as that isn’t a number that has factored into any of our internal discussions. If he goes to OSU his annual tuition would likely be either $8k a year, or $2k, and the max loans for freshmen is about $5.5k (which my son has offered to get, and we would think about allowing him to take a bit of a loan so he has skin in game only because he will be an engineering major with high immediate earning potential). So don’t recall how a $10k number fits in there anywhere. For Cornell, $10k isn’t anywhere part of the equation.

@cypresspat – Your posts are fun to read. Yeah, I get what you’re saying. My S21 is pre-engineering right now and his ECs also put him in the category of committed monogamist as well, lol – all tech and robotics. My D who was interested in our public honors, on the other hand, is much more of a polygamist! She’s bio major in college who would love to minor in math, global comparative literature and Spanish. (She won’t actually be able to do all three.) Her two fav classes freshman year were math modeling and a Tolstoy course. Go figure!

If your S is okay with OSU, I think you’re good shape. Step 1: get into OSU EA (yay!).
Step 2: Get in Cornell ED and he’s done (double yay!) If he’s not okay with OSU, he just needs to have some fallback options to apply to RD in case Cornell doesn’t work out.

What a great plan! He gets his shot at Cornell (ED). You guys took him around to explore lots of options, and he’s fine with the very good back up plan. Cornell will be worth the $ if he gets in.

To other parents reading this thread-- beware of nomenclature.

One of my kids went to a university where “UROP” (undergraduate research opportunity) was the catchall name for what other colleges call research positions, lab assigments, internships, fellowships, part-time or summer jobs. So if you were to ask a random junior “have you had any interesting and well paid internships” the answer might well be “no”, even if that kid had done three high quality and renumerative UROP’s. They are funded by the university or by a particular professor’s lab or grant, so even if the kid is working at a corporate site in an “unpaid” position, there is likely generous compensation attached to it.

Similarly, another one of my kids did an “internship” overseas (but it was called a fellowship) and NO visa issues at all, even though kid does not have EU citizenship. Perfectly legal, all paperwork handled by the university, it was officially known as an educational exchange program with a “stipend” so no local labor laws were violated. Same kid did an internship senior year but the comp offered was lower than what was typical for this college- so the fellowship office found a grant to make up the difference (a nice program to make sure that kids don’t come up short financially if they take a position at a not-for-profit or in a lower paid industry).

Do not overthink the whole “OMG, how can my kid work overseas without a visa” issue, or “how can my kid get a good internship at a college which doesn’t do a lot of internships”. They get called different things but the end result is usually the same. I don’t know of any large college which does not have at least one expert in study/work abroad issues who can’t get a kid the right visa or paperwork to be legal overseas. People get paid to know how to do this stuff and you do not need to be an EU citizen to get a part time job (which is how a 12 week role overseas would get classified) with sponsorship by either a local university or the originating university.

My bad, It was a statement made by Eeyore123 that she would make her kids pay for the difference…

I misread too. Sorry about that.

Well the OP started this thread looking for reasons and bribes to get kid to pick cheaper school and has now moved on to defending the expensive school. Which is fine and great if the finances work. So maybe that’s you’re answer. Throw the apps out and let the chips fall where they may. And if at the end of the day he’s at OSU, that is perfectly fine too. Truly, I think it’s win-win. Smart, financially privileged kids just do well in general no matter what. I was perfectly happy with every school my kid applied to. I was thrilled with our final price tag being lower than anticipated. It’s a good place to be.

For my kids the incentive for in-state was to not have to take out the federal loans (and a car if finished in 4 years). There were budget limits beyond that, but even within those the loans were required for the two that did not pick the state flagship (although the one that did is the one that didn’t finish (which is a completely different issue). I would think you would want your son to take the federal loans, even if you end up paying them back for him if he goes to grad school or picks a lower paying job.

While anyone who can even contemplate being full pay at private college is incredibly fortunate, it is still a very large chunk of change. Even if the family can “afford” the cost, it makes sense to let the student know that this is not money you couldn’t use in some other way. I don’t understand why some posters seem to not get that while the money may be available, it still means sacrifice by the family. Making sure the student has a very solid reason for the additional cost certainly makes sense to me.

My youngest just graduated from a state school, which was affordable but not the cheapest option. He is very happy with the education and incredible research opportunities he received at that school. Of course, he can’t compare that to what he would have gotten elsewhere, but has no regrets in turning down the more expensive private school (although it would have been a more fun location).

Sorry if I misunderstood. It sounded like you were trying to convince him without outright saying you want him to go to the state school.

@blossom. Good points. My dd is in Indonesia on a grant she secured from school and my son is in Israel doing an engineering internship as a rising Junior.
Still think the OP needs a safety to his safety.

@blossom. Agreed, no one has visa issues with internships. However, ability to be hired permanently is a major plus for some internships. Like a lot of kids discussed here, my S20 will go in with a semester of AP credits which don’t relate to his major. So, he could take a 6 month co-op in a European country, for example, which may or may not only go to citizens. It is rare for any kid to have dual citizenship with an EU country, but my oldest was able to leverage it for a co-op his classmates wouldn’t have even known about. (He sought it via the country’s HR website in the EU). Large multi-nationals even like to see it for co-ops and such in the US (because then, if hired, they won’t have visa issues if transferred to Europe for a bit). It is not a big deal because there are so many fantastic opportunities for internships and co-ops; no solid student goes without. But it is one thing my S20 has and he has seen his brother take advantage of it. Would brother have found something else equally as good for a co-op? Probably. But it led to his first job out of college, and not sure that would have been as easy as it was. Will never know.

Employers don’t offer internships and co-ops because they are being nice. They are looking for future talented employees. Just like not having US working rights is a disadvantage here, it is other countries, too.

I am late to this discussion, perhaps you have already answered my question below. Have your son considered Princeton, Harvard, MIT, Yale, Stanford? These schools’ FAs to families making $150K to $175K (I am not saying this applies directly to your family) are very generous, almost equivalent to tuition-free, thus rendering the EFCs around 25 to 30K in these cases; they would offer substantial aid also, to those making more. Of course, Cornell engineering is perhaps the top, these others are not shabby. Is he turned off by the “elitist” impression of these other schools? Your son’s statistics and prowess in hockey and soccer would make him an attractive candidate to these others.

“Convincing our son to go to the state flagship” resonates with my personal journey. In my case, the word ‘Convincing’ was replaced with ‘Ordering’.

The reason being, I vividly recall our AP Chem teacher in a papermill town lecturing us on the virtues of staying in-state for college and recommending the flagship uni as the holy grail, if we were so lucky. His pitch was that it would be silly to consider out-of-state institutions. I was stunned he was so narrow-minded, but noticed all the other heads nodding. At that very moment, my gut said, “I’ve got to get out of this state.”

My father was aloof about everything growing up. His involvement consisted of asking me what grade I was in every so often, but he did tell me one day shortly after the Chem teacher’s lecture, “Son, you are going to (the state flagship).” My heart and dreams sank.

It was pre-Google, so I borrowed a couple of thick volumes from the local library and conducted my analysis. When it came to “the talk”, I was uber prepared, yet knew I had to be brief with my Dad. I surmised the only thing more important to my father than the state flagship university was money. I also knew the best outcome for both was if it was his decision and if I could make sure he ‘could save face’ with a non-monetary reason to boot. I waited for the right day and my father to be in the right mood.

I spoke slowly and deliberately. "Dad, I only applied to three schools. I am accepted to ‘flagship U.’ and Virginia Tech (sight unseen). "
He looked up. “Oh.”
Me - “Virginia Tech is a better engineering school. See here. And it costs less out-of-state than ‘flagship U.’ does in-state. See here are the expenses for ‘flagship U.’ and here for VPI.”

My father paused for a moment that seemed like a week and said, “You know, I think you ought to go to the better engineering school.”

SILENT VICTORY! I walked out of the living room real fast and didn’t even glance back. In the end, he didn’t have to pay much at all. I took loans for a lot of my first two years’ expenses and personally paid for my junior and senior years at Virginia Tech by working 2 part-time jobs on top of my full-time summer job and received loans for the difference. I am extremely happy with the results. In fact , if I had to do it all over again with the knowledge I have now, I would have also applied to a number of elite private colleges just to see if I would have been accepted and rolled the dice on merit and financial aid. I probably assumed the headline expenses were set in stone back then.

Given my experience, I didn’t put any restrictions on my three kids, but I had one condition and that is, if they went to any college in our state (a different state from my teen years), I would move out of state,.

Different strokes for different folks. I understand why the vast majority of parents want their kids to stay close to home, pay in-state tuition, spend weekends at home from time to time, and go to the in-state public schools. I just wanted something different for my personal path and wanted my kids to know that it was okay too even if there is some local pressure to remain close to home.

Having a kid attend undergrad in state doesn’t preclude them from being independent or from moving out of state for grad school or a job. One of my son’s good friends launched 45 minutes from home for undergrad last year (to a CTCL LAC with generous merit). He was home 3 times all year, same as the kids cross country attending that school. I know parents who spend thousands of dollars on travel their kids freshman year at a far flung school on the other side of the country. Something we took into account when considering and applying to those further flung schools. The OP’s kid launched to an elite grad school from the in state flagship.

If the out of state option is truly comparable or cheaper, that’s another decision. My kid is actually attending a neighboring state’s flagship where we have reciprocity so my kid is a nice distance from home. But the decision (which included a school close to home that was in the final running) had much more to do with overall finances (+10-40K more to launch to those comparable further flung privates) than him coming home on the weekends. But I really think it’s inaccurate to say your kid can’t develop independence on a campus that happens to be closer to home. I find it a bit odd to tell a kid you’re moving out of state if they stay in state. It shows a certain level of financial privilege most do not have, even if it was tongue in cheek. And I say that as someone who calculates as full pay pretty much everywhere on the FAFSA. I’ve said this many times but just because FAFSA says you can be full pay doesn’t mean that’s actually true. If reputable financial advisors were punching those numbers, they would be much different for many.

There’s a difference between a kid in Cranston Rhode Island looking at URI and a kid in Illinois looking at UIUC. Having lived in some smaller states, I understand what Bloomfield is getting at (and yes, I think it’s tongue in cheek).

I found that odd also, whether a joke or not, that a parent would put restrictions/conditions that essentially forced their children to look out of state. @bloomfield88 , you say you went to Virginia Tech. One of my kids went to VT in engineering instate. It was 5 hours from our home, in a totally different environment (coastal vs. mountains). Should we have forced him to apply OOS just for the sake of going out of state? Ohio State is a wonderful choice for an instate Ohio resident. If the OP’s son gets into Cornell, that is wonderful also, since he has taken an interest in Cornell and the family is willing to pay.

@blossom Many kids in smaller states may be getting less out of their comfort zones by crossing a border into another state than some kids are getting from going to another part of their bigger state. Most kids still stay fairly close to home, primarily for economic reasons.

Hey @tgl2023 , thanks for your thoughts. I think my kid had a rather unusual way of looking for colleges. He kind of ‘backed into his list.’ He did all of the career interest tests and all that, which I assume most high schools offer. At the same time, some things were happening in the US which really poked at his sense of social justice. A bunch of ‘how could THAT happen?’ Environmental kind of stuff. Long story, but that brought him to the discipline of chemical engineering. He spent, oh, about a month watching every single YouTube video for job shadowing a chemical engineer, and then hunted down a chem engineering prof at one of the local universities who threw him a bone and let him hang with the grad students for a while. That guy turned him onto the notion of scientific literature. So THEN he dove more deeply into the news story issues, and linked them to scientific literature genres. He was loving AP chem, and really getting into some of the literature he was reading. He was a REALLY fun guy at parties. . He backed into the college list he wanted because they had the professors who did the work he liked. THEN he read (or perused) the most recent pubs of ALL of the chem eng faculty at the colleges on his list. If not enough of them were publishing things he liked (or at all), the school was cut from the list. Bonus points went to schools which had a big research program in the kind of stuff he liked (multiple faculty members) or were part of this one multi-university gigantic study.

They happened to be most highly ranked schools because the rankings tend to zero in on schools with highly productive faculty.
So, not being on his list means the school didn’t meet his VERY narrow definition of what he wanted. Harvard could call tomorrow and he’d Say ‘no, thank you.’ Or, were in a State he refused to go to, like Texas (don’t ask, no idea what he thinks is wrong with Texas).

So it was just stupid luck that our state flagship is on his list. And that he was a high stats kid, because none of the schools on his list had high acceptance rates.

Yes, he did not approach this like normal teenagers do. He is not normal. He kind of drives us nuts sometimes. His approach may mean college is a total disaster. It took us months to get him to look at the COLLEGE, not just the chem engineering labs and the list of publications of faculty he will never, ever lay eyes on. He just wants to go and study where those things happened that he read about. He feels very (I mean VERY) strongly that their work is going to lead to important breakthroughs and he wants to be a part of it. Even if being part of it means taking Chem 482 from one of their grad students. (Pro tip, if you ever bump into a chem eng major, light brown curly hair, green eyes, about 5’ 10”, do NOT ask him anything about chemical engineering, unless you have five hours to kill).

And, finally (if you’re still with me here), we will not qualify for any financial aid.

Good problem to have, actually.

And, finally (!), my son is no soccer or hockey star. He is a better hockey player than soccer, but only chance of playing would be for a very weak team. His coaches are pretty connected and a few colleges have lightly reached out, but he has zero interest because none of this schools are on THE LIST.

Most here probably don’t know about college hockey, but almost all eventual college varsity players take two years off between HS and college to play what is called ‘Juniors.’ So the average age of college hockey players is around 22. There are a bunch of 25 year old college hockey players in the US. Unless you are a real break out star in high school (then a d1 school will grab you at 18), the road to college hockey is long. My son Does not have enough size, talent or desire to pursue college hockey. If he somehow makes it into Cornell, he will be at every home game; Cornell is a hockey powerhouse. (Cornell students and alum, see, I have been paying attention!).

@bloomfield88 I totally get where you are coming from. Back in the covered wagon days when I was choosing a college. I had one main requirement: get me outta here! My father passed when I was very young and my mother could not have been less engaged in my education. I get it.

My husband and I have always lived beneath our means, but we have also always seen the value in taking our kids on trips. It was important for us to expand their world view, and it worked. All three of my kids are intrepid travelers and I love that we have them that gift. They all got my too narrow mouth and needed wisdom teeth removal, so the least I could do is make sure they saw Venice before it is submerged.
It drives me nuts around here that so many seniors just don’t consider out of state (public OR private) options. I mean, geesh…college is a great time to spread your wings and live somewhere different. Adulthood is for when you choose a place to live based on cost of living, traffic, and taxes. Go someplace awesome for college! Few agree with me.

I like the idea of moving out of state if my kid chooses the instate option. Genius.

Cypresspat, thank you for explaining. Your son will most likely get accepted at Cornell ED, with his good stats, focused intensity, and playing two sports at club-level ! I hope that he (and your family) will get to enjoy his HS senior year.

@tgl2023 Why, thank you. And you get a gold star for hanging with that epic explanation.

I would put his chances at around 40% for the ED at Cornell. He is much more pessimistic, but that is his nature. That is when I know he really wants something - he expresses doubt about its possibility. He will spend the next two weeks getting his two apps ready to go and then we will buckle up for the long ride to mid December.

Parallel to these months will be many of the ‘lasts’ I will have. He just completed the last soccer tournament I will ever have a kid play in (my kids are six years apart so I have been watching soccer tournaments for a loooong time). I will watch his last HS marching band performance (again, kid #3). Last Homecoming Dance. I will be a mess, a lot, for much of these months. Sniff.