<p>Hey guys I am currently in the process of deciding where to go - WashU or Cornell for this fall's freshman undergrad class. I have visited both and I like both - obviously they are quite different in some aspects, but I can see myself being happy at either school. I am a prospective premed and determined to go onto medical school, so I was wondering which school would be better for premed. My main concern with Cornell is whether I would have any clinical related opportunities during the school year. There is no nearby Cornell affiliated medical center, and, according to a Cornell premed student I spoke to, volunteering and shadowing during the school year is rare (no Cornell shuttle/bus runs to Cayuga Med Center, few students actually pursue opportunities at Cayuga Med). The only patient care related opportunity I can think of at Cornell is their student run EMS. I am leaning towards WashU because of their wealth of volunteering/shadowing opportunities; I was wondering what your guys' thoughts on this are. I would like to hear from any current or past premed students. Thanks!</p>
<p>I’m no expert in this area, but FWIW here are some relevant prior CC posts, from two Cornellians attending top medical schools:</p>
<p>from norcalguy:
[Q" Can someone comment on whether/how not having a med center/hospital on campus impacts premeds with regards to their EC/clinical experience? What are the opportunities for them to get such experience?]</p>
<p>"Cayuga Med is a short bus ride away (the 21 bus I think). Cal Wood, the volunteer director, is a really cool guy. He will try to accomodate you as to the department you want to volunteer in. Getting volunteering is not a problem. Anyone who wants a position will get one.</p>
<p>The really great thing about Cornell is that it has two formal shadowing programs that will pair you up with physicians to shadow. Most other schools don’t have this so you’re stuck cold-calling/emailing random physicians asking if you can follow them around. Cornell has a Mentorship Program through Gannett and an Externship Program that will help you find physicians to shadow. These physicians volunteered for these programs so they’re actually happy to mentor a premed.</p>
<p>I applied for both programs, got into both programs (they’re not very selective) and had a great time. The second doctor I shadowed was particularly gracious. He drove out of his way to pick me up from my apartment, bought me lunch each day that I shadowed, and even offered me some of his Cornell hockey tickets. "</p>
<p>from nesh1080:
“I’m pre-med and will be shadowing a bunch of doctors (most are Cornell alumni) at the med school in NYC over the summer … in terms of research/shadowing opportunities, Cornell is definitely on par with, if not better than, Washu.”</p>
<p>Thanks monydad! Another concern of mine is that Cornell apparently no longer releases its data for med school acceptance rates and that Cornell’s acceptance rate from 2010 (the last year the rate was released) was quite low (compared to WashU and private schools of similar caliber/rank). </p>
<p>One would think that Cornell students are given a boost in terms of medical school acceptance, but only 74% of students with a gpa of 3.4 or above got into any med school: <a href=“Medical and Health Careers | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University”>Medical and Health Careers | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University;
<p>On the other hand, 72% of ALL med school applicants at WashU got into at least one med school (for a BCPM GPA of 3.2 and above, that number was 83%): <a href=“https://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/Handbook.pdf”>https://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/Handbook.pdf</a></p>
<p>I really would like to attend Cornell, as it is a fantastic school; however, the above info is troubling. It doesn’t seem like premed outcomes at Cornell are that great compared to WashU… WashU students seem to do so much better in placement. I was wondering if any past or current Cornell premed had some insight on this matter and would like to comment. Thank you! </p>
<p>IIRC past posts by norcalguy, this data is not reported consistently by all colleges, and Cornell doesn’t include O.D. programs in its results, whereas most others do. Also IIRC there was some change in the advisor a few years ago?? that may have caused the interruption in reporting? don;t really know.</p>
<p>If they don’t filter out who applies, and some people apply who aren’t good enough, and most of those people don’t get in. is that supposed to be some strike against the university?
Versus some other school where some committee says basically we won’t write you a letter and then those people don’t even apply?</p>
<p>Cornell is a diverse place. Not everyone there is smart enough, or a good enough student. to get into medical school, Quite frankly.</p>
<p>The question should not be can you get in even if you aren’t smart enough. Because frankly, however Wash U is cooking those numbers, if you aren’t you won’t get in.</p>
<p>Not everyone who attends Cornell deserves to get in.</p>
<p>According to norcalguy if you can’t “even” excel at Cornell there is no way you will survive medical school.</p>
<p>Thank you Monydad for your response (again). I truly appreciate your taking the time to respond. I respect what you are saying, but that is why I attached the applied/accepted charts for both schools. </p>
<p>I understand if you can’t excel at Cornell you won’t survive medical school; but looking at the chart, there are many students who do well at Cornell who don’t get into ANY medical school. I mean if you get a 3.4 regular GPA at Cornell vs a 3.2 science GPA at WashU (or a 3.6 regular GPA at Cornell vs. a 3.4 science GPA at WashU) , the acceptance rates aren’t even close. The charts show that WashU students do much better than Cornell students with similar GPA’s and MCAT’s - this doesn’t make sense to me. I mean Cornell is known for being extremely rigorous, shouldn’t adcoms recognize this and give Cornell students the benefit of the doubt?</p>
<p>As far as premeds being discouraged to apply to med school, it seems based on the charts that a larger number of less-qualified applicants apply from WashU than from Cornell, and still WashU’s overall acceptance rate is higher. That is disconcerting.</p>
<p>I am just concerned that Cornell, for whatever reason, is not the right place to do premed - I really love Cornell and would like to attend, but I don’t want to attend and then be put at a disadvantage for getting into medical school. Sure, getting into medical school is almost entirely dependent on my performance alone, but I want to go to a school that has an established track record for solid medical school placement - based on the charts it seems that WashU does and Cornell doesn’t. That is my main concern. Although you are absolutely correct that Cornell filters out URM applicants and D.O. programs from their numbers, so maybe this is the main reason for the low acceptance rate? </p>
<p>Again, I’m not trying to say WashU is better than Cornell, I am just looking for reasons why WashU’s med school placement appears to be so much better than Cornell’s. Neither school seems to screen applicants, both schools are rigorous, both produce well-qualified premed students, both schools have under-qualified students applying to med school, yet WashU seems to do much better in placement. </p>
<p>OD is optometry degree. DO is the doctor of osteopathy degree.
The WashU report does not include engineering school applicants.
I’m not a Cornell student, so I can’t address your concerns. But 74% is much higher than national average of 45-50% acceptance rate. Also true that many schools include DO acceptances in the statistics, and DO schools accept applicants with lower GPA and MCAT scores.
You should also be aware of the hidden hurdles for applicants before being able to apply, which like monydad mentioned, does the prehealth committee refuse to write you letters of rec if you didn’t reach a certain standard?</p>
<p>For premed, it is absolutely not necessary to go to a brand-name, rigorous undergrad, unless you want to go to a very top-ranked med school.
Med school accepts a diverse student body, so the admissions places importance on your hometown (bonus to rural area applicants) and experiences, desires to change the community in what ways. You can see that accepted med school students are from many different undergrds, according to med schools’ data.
As long as you are smart enough and can score high enough on MCAT, it doesn’t matter if you go to a brand name undergrad or not. So still it’s easier to go to a grade inflation undergrad.</p>
<p>It does seem like WashU would be a safer bet for you from the data you have posted. I have read despite that Cornell classes are rigorous, a below par GPA may or may not be given a boost in the admissions process, and even if there is a boost, it’s not going to be big…like +0.1 to GPA.</p>
<p>-Based on what norcalguy posted previously, your base assumption that the data you are basing this whole thing on is even being presented fairly and consistently between the two may be incorrect in the first place.</p>
<p>-From what I recall reading, I don’t think Cornell is more rigorous than Wash U.</p>
<p>-I don’t know anything about med school admissions myself, just linking stuff I read. Unfortunately the people who made those posts don’t seem to be hanging out here currently. You can try PMing them.</p>
<p>-Maybe you can PM this guy, at least he seems to be around. Just one opinion though.
<a href=“The Truth About Elite College and Medical School Admissions - Admission Stories - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/admissions-hindsight-lessons-learned/1638548-the-truth-about-elite-college-and-medical-school-admissions.html</a></p>
<p>This is another thread I remembered, FWIW:
<a href=“Cornell vs. Washington University in St. Louis Premed? - Pre-Med Topics - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/917200-cornell-vs-washington-university-in-st-louis-premed.html</a></p>
<p>Latuza - thank you for the advice. I agree that WashU is probably the safer option (and since no one I have spoken to and no Cornell premed on this forum has suggested otherwise I think that is a safe assumption). </p>
<p>Monydad - thanks for the links. I have looked at those threads in the past though, which is why I created this thread. Those threads don’t directly address Cornell’s relatively poor placement rate. I mean peer schools like Brown, Duke, Rice, WashU seem to do much better in placement. </p>
<p>Cornellians often assume that the rigor of their courseload/lack of grade inflation helps them in the eyes of med school adcoms, but based on the charts provided that does not seem to be true. I wish some current or former Cornell premed could weigh in…</p>
<p>I wasn’t a premed. i think you are giving those meaningless med school acceptance stats too much credit. grad school admissions is all individual merit based.</p>
<p>no matter what college you attend, if you’re a stud, people will take notice and you will get your pick of top jobs, top law school acceptances, med school acceptances, you name it.</p>
<p>that being said, focus on choosing a school that you feel more comfortable at and where you want to spend 4 years of your youth. </p>
<p>Okay, I think you should consider attending Wash U. Cornell isn’t for everyone, and if it’s a poor fit for your goals and interests, then don’t go–simple as that! WUSTL is a great institution and you can receive an excellent education there.</p>
<p>And I agree that medical school admissions are merit-based. Honestly, if you’re 100% sure you want to go the premed route, you could look beyond these two schools as well. I’m still a HS senior like you, so take my advice as you will, but I do believe that a large chunk of medical school admissions is contingent on an applicant’s GPA and MCAT scores. So it isn’t a big deal which school you ultimately attend, as long as you can perform well and prove that you’re cut out for this line of work. </p>
<p>Best of luck! </p>
<p>NYULawyer - thanks for the great advice. I assume you are far more experienced than I in terms of grad school admissions, but I do think the med school acceptance stats are more than meaningless. GPA and MCAT’s are essential for med school (along with ec’s of course) and if I go to a school like Cornell where GPA seems to be slightly deflated compared to peers and applicants don’t seem to be rewarded at all (compared to peer schools) in med school admissions for the rigor of its curriculum and quality of students , then it is tough to choose Cornell. I think the stats do at least a decent job of showing which colleges have a track record of solid med school placement, and Cornell’s stats seem to highlight they do not have this solid track record.</p>
<p>Coriander23 - thanks for the response, I agree with you and I think I am leaning toward WashU. I really love Cornell, and in creating this thread, I was hoping to get some insight/reassurance from current/past premeds at Cornell. I guess it was wishful thinking on my part, as I really wanted to go to Cornell. However, Cornell just doesn’t seem to be a great premed school (again why it isn’t baffles me), so in that case WashU does serve my future goals far better. </p>
<p>It just doesn’t make sense to me how Cornell lags behind its peer schools in med school placement and why the pre health committee/school does nothing significant to change this (the overall acceptance rate has stayed in the in the 60’s/low 70’s for the past 10 years). Again if any Cornell premed would like to object, then I would love to hear it, but I have come to the conclusion that schools like Dartmouth, Duke, Brown, Rice, and yes WashU are obvious choices over Cornell for premed (assuming one likes and “fits” well with the aforementioned schools). It is a shame, because Cornell is such a great school…</p>
<p>pinegood, if it’s not too late, why don’t you email the pre med advisor at Cornell with your questions?</p>
<p>If your desire is a high GPA, the best approach would be go to your state university. Because if you were accepted to Cornell and WashU, it is almost guaranteed that you will have a high GPA in a flagship. All top universities including WashU and Cornell will not be as easy. </p>
<p>For the question regarding placement, I think you need to find and read the statistics of where these applicants applied and accepted to beside reading the chart on the face value, there are more reasons behind the numbers than it appears. (everyone, including current students, would not know the reasons without digging) For example, it is possible that WashU students are more receptive of applying to mid-west med schools because the university itself is in mid-west, and maybe very few Cornell students are applying to these schools. In this case WashU would appear to have higher acceptance rate since mid-west med schools may be easier to get into. This is just one example for critical thinking. And if this is truly one of the reasons, you can just include mid-west med schools on your future list.</p>
<p>If the overall admission rate is actually lower, it is probably because they don’t prevent stupider people from among their graduates from applying to med school. The lower tail at Cornell, aggregated over all its undergraduate colleges that produce med school candidates, not just one, is lower than at those other schools. The overall rates at most of those schools probably <em>should</em> be higher.</p>
<p>My guess is you are giving too much credence to numbers that are not really completely comparable. For one thing we’ve been told several times that Cornell includes only “allopathic” (MD) schools. as I posted before.
What’s the expression: “lies.damned lies,and statistics”.</p>
<p>It’s too bad none of the relevant people are currently participating on CC, but their current absence from CC does not mean they are hiding from answering you. They are simply not on CC anymore/now.</p>
<p>Since you’ve seen the old posts, you’ve probably seen this one too:</p>
<p>"I’m currently in WashU Biomedical Engineering, but taking similar classes to that of a Pre-Med. Pre Meds are required to take Chemistry I here, and that is one of the biggest weed out classes for pre-meds. Every year, 600 come in, and more than 20% drop.</p>
<p>Sophomore year, there is Organic Chemistry, which is also a giant weed-out class.</p>
<p>By the end of 4 years, The pre-med population at WashU goes from 600 to less than 200. That is more than a 66% drop out rate. But because of this insane selectivity, our MCAT averages at 36/45 (!!!). That’s enough for Harvard Medical School / JHU Med-School. The funny thing is that WashU’s Medical School has even higher averages: 3.9 GPA and 39/45 on MCAT.</p>
<p>39/45 <- impossible</p>
<p>So, come to WashU if you want a top pre-med program with lots of competition >_<
"</p>
<p><a href=“Good Pre-Med Schools - #196 by euphoria_z - Pre-Med Topics - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/202936-good-pre-med-schools-p14.html</a></p>
<p>Of course you will have plenty of competition at Cornell too. Though as I said the lower tail of its class may be weaker than at some other schools to which it is often compared. Paradoxically, a factor that might lower the school’s overall reported admissions rate may actually serve to increase your personal chances, </p>
<p>Kaukauna - I did, and honestly they weren’t too helpful. They basically gave no reason why Cornell’s rate is lower other than “getting into medical school is hard.” They also didn’t give a legit reason why, ever since 2010, Cornell’s med school acceptance data is no longer reported. This raises a HUGE red flag. </p>
<p>2Daswell - I understand what you are saying, you can’t take the numbers solely at face value (even if they are broken up into applied/accepted charts). There are a lot of confounding factors that may affect the placement rate, which is why I posted on this forum in the first place (to find a justification for why Cornell’s acceptance rate is low). At the same time, I think your midwest argument isn’t true. Think about all the great med schools in the midwest - WashU, UMich, Northwestern, UChicago, Wisconsin-Madison, Case Western, Mayo. You’ve got Vanderbilt, Duke, Baylor, and Emory not too far away from WashU (relatively speaking). Plus we’re talking about students getting into ANY med school. I find it hard to believe that less Cornell students apply to “easier to get into” med schools than do WashU students. As far as high GPA, I understand my GPA will suffer at a higher-ranked school, and I am okay with that. What bothers me is that peer schools of Cornell routinely get many more students (with lesser or equal GPAs to their Cornell counterparts) into medical school. </p>
<p>Monydad - While I see what you are saying, again this is why I looked up the charts. What the charts show to me clearly is that WashU has more lesser-qualified applicants to med school than Cornell does, and still has a significantly higher acceptance rate. It’s not like Cornell has a weaker overall applicant pool, in fact Cornell’s applicant pool based on the charts seem quite strong compared to WashU. Plus, for students with lesser GPA’s at WashU than Cornell, the acceptance rate is still higher. That is my concern. I understand the concept of being weeded out and how hard it is to stay above the curve, but that happens at Cornell too. Cornell is often cited as “grade deflated and cutthroat” and while I largely disagree with that, students at Cornell (and peer schools) have told me that Cornell is among the toughest schools of its class/ranking to attend and to succeed at. </p>
<p>As far as the chart taking into account only MD schools and non-URM first-time applicants, yes that is one of the only reasons I can think of for why Cornell’s acceptance rate is so low. The other reason, I am guessing, is poor advising and/or clinical opportunities. I have spoken with Cornell premed students who say that clinical opportunities, if you don’t have a car, are very rarely pursued during the school year. There is no nearby affiliated hospital, transportation to the Ithaca Med Center is difficult (there’s not even a Cornell shuttle that goes there), and not many opportunities for volunteers exist there anyways. Everybody at Cornell points to the “fantastic EMS” in response to this, but honestly EMS is different than hospital experience and WashU/peer schools have student-run EMS as well. I think Cornell sorely lacks in clinical opportunities for undergrads, why this is I do not know (again the pre health advising team was not helpful in this regard and basically suggested you have to be quite creative in finding meaningful clinical opportunities during the school year).</p>
<p>It’s unfortunate Cornell’s premed lags behind, as again it is a fantastic school and I love it and I was ecstatic when admitted. But looking deeper reveals that the premed just isn’t that great - yes numbers and stats only tell part of the picture, but numbers don’t lie. Statistically speaking, Cornell’s placement rate isn’t where it should be for such a great, rigorous school. Additionally, why Cornell doesn’t take more of an effort to provide more clinical opportunities for undergrads is beyond me. They don’t even run a program with Weill for summer undergrad opportunities, according to the pre health team. That is just sad…</p>
<p>I’m not trying to belittle Cornell, I’m just frustrated that such an amazing institution that I love so much does not have a great premed track (its premed may be decent or even good, but it’s not even comparable to many of its peer schools)… I think the harsh reality is that I - and most who want to get into med school - would be better off at WashU for premed…</p>
<p>pinegood - you’ve done a lot of research. You’ve thought this thing through very well. I think you’re equipped to make the right decision. Make it and don’t look back. Best of luck to you. I look forward to you improving the medical field in 8-10 years!</p>
<p>@pinegood,</p>
<p>Your information on Cornell not having summer clinical opportunities for its premed students is grossly incorrect. They have a Urban Semester program where Cornell premed students can participate in medical rotations at various hospitals in NYC in the summer. This is a fact as my son will be a participant in this program this summer. Two caveats though: (1) you have to apply for this program and there is a min. GPA cutoff of 3.0 (B average) to qualify (2) it is formally a summer course, so you may have to pay a summer tuition to participate (although they do provide financial aid for needy students).</p>
<p>In addition, contrary to rumors on the internet, Cornell still gives out admission statistics on years after 2010. My son attended a premed orientation session as a freshman and they provided all the admission statistics (more details than is publicly available on its website for previous years, with acceptance rate against various combinations of GPA and MCAT score). They did emphasize several things when comparing admission statistics from different schools: (1) As many pointed out already, Cornell excludes DO acceptances and only includes MD schools, and that really will skew the overall statistics by A LOT (all the students with GPA between 3.0 to 3.4 will have significant if not full acceptance rate into DO schools, but unfortunately, most of these students will likely be all fall under the null pool for MD acceptances) (2) minorities acceptances have not been included (3) they included all and not just first-time applicants, which according to the premed advisor, if only first-time applicants were to be included, the admission statistics will look a “little” stronger. As can be surmised, out of the above three factors, the effect due to factor (1) would be most significant, and it is not far-fetch to imagine that the statistics will be >7-10% higher if DO schools were to be included. Another important factor is that Cornell does not filter out students as applicants to med school, whereas according to many other sources, in order to preserve favorable admission statistics, a lot of school do restrict students who are deemed to be “under-qualified” to apply to medical school.</p>
<p>All in all, my overall message is that one has to take extreme caveats in comparing medical school admission statistics between schools.</p>
<p>Good luck to you in whatever school you decide to attend.</p>
<p>Kaukauna - thanks for the kind words! And yes I am very close to making that decision. I don’t know if you are a premed or not, but good luck to you too in whatever you are pursuing! </p>
<p>Cruiser101-
I spoke to the premed committee, so please don’t think that I am basing my info on “rumors on the internet.”
First of all, there is no program for undergrads at Weill (if you don’t know, Weill is Cornell’s medical school), that is a fact according to the premed advising team. Now there may be a program in NYC, which is good. However my main concern is clinical opportunities DURING the school year, which again, after speaking to various Cornell premeds, are very rare.<br>
Why do you think there are rumors of med school acceptance? Look at the chart I attached in the first post of this thread - it is the last available chart for premed acceptance. Look at Cornell’s HCEC website and try to find any acceptance rate that is more recent than 2010. I spoke with the pre health advising: they said they are unable to make applied/accepted charts for the past few years because they don’t have anybody recording the data. And please don’t spread rumors yourself: look at the chart I attached. It clearly says, “admission statistics for FIRST TIME applicants.” The acceptance rate for FIRST TIME applicants is 67% (or rather it was in 2010, and may have dropped further in recent years). So your assertion that the acceptance rate is based on all applicants is false. Finally, the fact that Cornell doesn’t screen applicants is not that big of a deal. And at Cornell (according to Cornell’s Career Services), anybody with a GPA under 3.4 is discouraged from applying to med school (though not prevented from doing so). Regardless, no screening occurs at WashU and WashU still has a higher acceptance rate to med school (again, if you don’t believe me, look at the chart). Good luck to your son as a Cornell premed, btw.</p>
<p>I think I know which school I am leaning towards and which school is the obvious choice for premed. Again, if any Cornell premed would like to chime in, please do so. </p>
<p>re: “transportation to the Ithaca Med Center is difficult (there’s not even a Cornell shuttle that goes there)”…</p>
<p>The trip from the Cornell campus to Cayuga Medical Center using the public bus system takes 40 minutes and costs $1.50. </p>
<p>If you have a car, or can bother a friend to drive you, Mapquest says it takes 8 minutes, but I would budget 15. It’s only a little over 3 miles away, but there are trafic lights, and maybe trafiic through “the octopus” downtown.</p>
<p>Worst case, Cayuga Medical Center is a $12 cab ride from the Cornell campus, and would take that same 15 minutes. But I imagine most students are able to use the bus system, drive or get a ride.</p>