<p>Phew, my bubbling estrogen. It is hot in here.</p>
<p>nspeds, I'm a little tired from work, so maybe I'm missing something here, but the link you gave shows that 43 Cal students are at Harvard Law (more than Cornell and more than any other non Ivy save for Stanford and Duke). Even given Cal's size, it seems to be pretty well represented at HLS. I'm wondering about your claim that only one Cal student got into Yale law and only four got into Harvard law last year. Could you link those stats. Thanks.</p>
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nspeds, I'm a little tired from work, so maybe I'm missing something here, but the link you gave shows that 43 Cal students are at Harvard Law (more than Cornell and more than any other non Ivy save for Stanford and Duke).
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<p>Once again... those are not the total of admitted students, those are just the total students from Cal at HLS. And no, they are not very well represented considering their size. They might have more students at HLS, but Cal has a very large student-body.</p>
<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm</a></p>
<p>Keep in mind that I argued the same for Cornell: given Cornell's size of student-body, those numbers are not good either.</p>
<p>Also, how could I forget, the WSJ report on top feeder schools:</p>
<p>yes...berkeley is 41 and cornell is 25</p>
<p>Does anyone have links to the grad school stats from a while back when Berkeley was rated in the top 5? I'm just curious.</p>
<p>I don't know. Those numbers don't bother me for the same reason they do bother you. I think that because Cal is so big, you can't possibly expect that the percentage of people getting into top 15 programs is going to be the same as New School college (or whatever it is) that got in a whopping 3 students to the top 15 and is considered "better" than berkeley. I don't buy it. With I class as big as Cal's, and bottom 20 percent that is less than stellar, you will get a lower percentage of people getting into (or even trying to get into) top grad programs.</p>
<p>I agree that the 'feeder score' is not really helpful because the scales are way off. Forgetting anything about the # considering grad school or student quality, 113 students vs 6,000 students just doesn't give meaningful stats :) However I do think there is a better comparison to the schools with 1,000+ students.</p>
<p>On another note, I don't know how old those statistics are but Ann Arbor appears to be kicking Cal's ass :)</p>
<p>Let's not forget that what is most important is an individual applicant. The undergraduate school difference between Berkeley and Cornell is really not going to be that significant. A 1 point difference in your LSAT score will probably be more significant. They are both good schools and what will really matter are grades, LSAT score, and what particular coursework is attempted and completed.</p>
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Let's not forget that what is most important is an individual applicant. The undergraduate school difference between Berkeley and Cornell is really not going to be that significant. A 1 point difference in your LSAT score will probably be more significant.
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<p>I agree if you are talking about schools outside the top 3. For HYS, everything matters.</p>
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On another note, I don't know how old those statistics are but Ann Arbor appears to be kicking Cal's ass
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<p>That is surprising. I thought Cal was better at placement.</p>
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Forgetting anything about the # considering grad school or student quality, 113 students vs 6,000 students just doesn't give meaningful stats However I do think there is a better comparison to the schools with 1,000+ students.
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<p>Well, yes... but you have to understand that it is all about proportion. If the rankings were not proportioned, they would be in favor of larger schools, I think.</p>
<p>That feeder thing says that Umich has a smaller class size, yet in actuallity it has at least a few thousand more undergrads than Cal. Anyone care to explain that?</p>
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That feeder thing says that Umich has a smaller class size, yet in actuallity it has at least a few thousand more undergrads than Cal. Anyone care to explain that?
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<p>Overall undergraduate population differs from class size.</p>
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Well, yes... but you have to understand that it is all about proportion. If the rankings were not proportioned, they would be in favor of larger schools, I think.
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<p>Yes proportion matters but at that difference level the meaningfulness of any inference is diminished. It's like if I start a school with two students... one gets into HLS and my acceptance rate is 50%. Comparing this to a similar level school with 120 students would be silly (Berkeley is about 60x larger than New College).</p>
<p>P.S. Don't hate on my smiley faces :p</p>
<p>"It's like if I start a school with two students... one gets into HLS and my acceptance rate is 50%. Comparing this to a similar level school with 120 students would be silly (Berkeley is about 60x larger than New College)."</p>
<p>Especially when you have a school that is small and specifically meant to attract students who have grad schools in mind.</p>
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Especially when you have a school that is small and specifically meant to attract students who have grad schools in mind.
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<p>Okay, then eliminate the excessively small schools. Cal's position is still below many other school's, including Cornell's.</p>
<p>"Overall undergraduate population differs from class size."</p>
<p>Just so I don't have to think, please exlplain to me why a school with, say, 25,000 students would have a significantly smaller class size than a school with, say, 22,000 students. There's probably an easy answer to this, but I promised myself I wouldn't use my brain tonight.</p>
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Just so I don't have to think, please exlplain to me why a school with, say, 25,000 students would have a significantly smaller class size than a school with, say, 22,000 students. There's probably an easy answer to this, but I promised myself I wouldn't use my brain tonight.
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<p>I do not know, I am memorizing words right now. Haha.</p>
<p>Just some caveats about the feeder rankings:
1) They only survey, I think, top 5 graduate schools for each category (Law, Med, and Bus).
2) Their calculations utilize the amount of students attending, not the amount accepted.</p>
<p>How can you post pages of criticisms about the Times ranking and then post the equally poor WSJ feeder report? C'mon, nspeds, that report has many, many problems, from the schools they pick to be the "top 5" in each field and their geography (mostly in the Northeast, generally far from where the average Cal grad wants to live) to other major issues. And unlike you, I don't have to energy and enthusiasm to copy and past pages of criticisms. :p</p>
<p>Also, don't you think the Berkeley numbers only including graduating seniors is significant to the figures shown?</p>
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Also, 43 UCB grads at HLS vs. 40 at Cornell. Not bad considering UCB is nearly twice the size of Cornell and taking into account the fact that a large amount of students at Cornell are majoring in a specific field with no intentions of going into law (examples: hotel management, architecture, engineering, agricultural science).
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<p>Because many Berkeley students aren't similar (see long list of Berkeley majors)?</p>
<p>DRab, I noted some of the caveats in the post prior to yours.</p>
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Also, don't you think the Berkeley numbers only including graduating seniors is significant to the figures shown?
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<p>I do not think so, only because the numbers remain pretty stable from year to year.</p>
<p>That only begins to cover the problems with the report.</p>
<p>What do you mean the numbers remain stable from year to year? The numbers on the career center website do?</p>
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What do you mean the numbers remain stable from year to year? The numbers on the career center website do?
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Yes he does. I don't see how the numbers remaining "pretty stable" quells that concern. With a bigger picture the numbers would be similarly, or more, stable but with a lower average gpa and lsat score.</p>
<p>The best indicator for a person are the averages for the law schools overall (avg numbers including all undergrad institutions, applicants), not numbers like those on the Berkeley career center website (because of their limited nature). Again, there is probably very little difference between Cornell and Berkeley; both are clearly good schools. The individual applicant is far more important. I suggest someone emails HLS admissions and asks.</p>