Cornell vs. Dartmouth?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
1

<p>I am torn between these two great schools. I have visited both and will visit both again during Dimension and Cornell Days. I hope to get some advice from others as well. </p>

<p>I love how Cornell has so many majors and you can literally take any classes you like. The university itself is like a city, and it is VERY well-known internationally. But I'm kind of worried about the location. It's very far from the major cities in my perspective (since I live near the city) so it kind of feel "confined."</p>

<p>I love Dartmouth's lintimate Hanover feeling and its emphasis on undergraduate education. However, compared with Cornell it is less well-known internationally. Since I may work internationally, I feel like that Cornell may be better in that aspect... but I really like the little town warmth and its proximity to Boston, MA.</p>

<p>Any advice?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>I faced the same dilemma last year. A lot of students from my high school got in to both Cornell and Dartmouth.<br>
Cornell takes a lot of students from New York. Most of the students in my high school who were trying to choose between the two schools ended up going with Dartmouth, but I think that's only because Cornell doesn't have as selective/elite reputation in NY as they do elsewhere (they take about 60-70 kids a year from my high school). </p>

<p>IMO, prestige shouldn't be that important in your decision. If you plan on working abroad in business, "international reputation" doesn't matter since you'll probably be recruited by an American firm (and they definitely know Dartmouth). Dartmouth's Tuck school of business is also VERY well known internationally because of its high rankings in the WSJ.<br>
What school did you get accepted at?
I'd say Cornell's undergrad engineering school is more reputable than Dartmouth's. If you plan on working abroad in a career in science, then maybe Cornell's reputation as an ivy league research university may be better. That's not to say that Dartmouth doesn't have good science programs, Dartmouth's just not a huge research university.</p>

<p>It all boils down to whether you want to study at a large university, or a LAC, and where you feel more comfortable.</p>

3

<p>I applied to CAS for Cornell, but I may end up transferring within the school if I change my mind as to what I'd like to do... Do you think that since so many people in Cornell are from New York, the people I meet will be somewhat confined than at Dartmouth? Also, which school did you choose eventually? Thanks!</p>

4

<p>
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Do you think that since so many people in Cornell are from New York, the people I meet will be somewhat confined than at Dartmouth?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Probably not. Reputations/myths can be misleading. Cornell has a few colleges (I think human ecology, ILR, but not 100% sure) which are endowed (funded in part, or maybe completely, i don't remember) by New York state, which have to accept a lot of NY residents. A nice side fact is that these schools were, and perhaps still are, listed in the SUNY (State University of New York) viewbook.<br>
Since CAS is completely private, I'm pretty sure it will be just as diverse as Dartmouth. However, this doesn't mean it's very diverse. Most ivy league schools take A LOT of their students from New York, New Jersey, Connecticutt, Massachusetts, and California, so no matter where you go, most of the people will be from those states. </p>

<p>As for international students, I hear Cornell is really popular with international students, though I don't know any statistics. Cornell usually gives very little (or none at all) financial aid to international students outside of North America (students not from canada or mexico), so you may find that most of the international students are wealthy. Dartmouth gives a lot of financial aid to international students (even though it's not need blind) so a lot of international students here are from regular families. </p>

<p>However, I also have to admit that in recent years, the percentage of international students at Dartmouth has been decreasing. It used to be 12% just a few years ago, but now it's 5% because of non-need blind financial aid. The student assembly is pushing for changes in the college's policy. But these things also change quickly. If Dartmouth changes the policy, the number of international students can go up <em>very</em> quickly. </p>

<p>What state or country are you from? Are you from the city or the suburbs? </p>

<p>I ended up choosing Dartmouth.</p>

5

<p>I'm from CT and live in the suburbs. I've never lived in a rural place before, so I think in that perspective, I like Dartmouth better than Cornell. Thank you for the detailed information. It's really helpful!</p>

<p>Do you think you could tell me why you ended up choosing Dartmouth?</p>

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<p>cornell is definitely better known internationally (and nationally) and that is due to its grad programs, primarily sciences and engineering school.</p>

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<p>Umm... here's some background. I come from a pretty well-off family. When I applied to college, I didn't even fill out the FAFSA form because I knew there was no way I'd get financial aid.</p>

<p>Having said that, when the conversation came up about applying to Cornell, my parents laughed and said that they didn't want to waste the $60 on application fees. I don't get the point of Cornell - it has by far the least prestige of any of the Ivy league schools. Additionally, I hear it's also the toughest. They don't grade inflate, meaning you have to work even harder: you need to get better grades at a worse institution than most of your peers. It's kind of a mirror image of Harvard, really. Harvard's the most famous, potentially easiest of the Ivies. Cornell is just a really raw deal.</p>

<p>Besides, what you're ultimately going to is a state school anyway. Except you're paying Ivy league college dues to be there. If you're thinking about graduate school of any kind (law, med, business, academics), then in my mind, there's only one statistic that should interest you about a college: placement. How much easier does the school you're going to for undergrad make it to get into a top grad school? Well, there's a study done on this:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Wall Street Journal ranks Dartmouth at #7 and Cornell at #25, making it both the bottom of the Ivy league and behind such non-Ivies as UChicago, Pomona, Georgetown, and Northwestern. Ivy League? In name only.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
cornell is definitely better known internationally (and nationally) and that is due to its grad programs, primarily sciences and engineering school.

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</p>

<p>I disagree with your point about Cornell being more prestigious nationally. Cornell is may be better known internationally, but I wouldn't say it's better known nationally. If people know Cornell, they will know Dartmouth. Outside the Northeast, and aside from people who follow ivy league athletics, most people have never heard of either school. Ask a guy on the street in Wisconsin what Cornell is, and at best, he'll think of the LAC cornell college in Iowa. He might know Harvard, Yale, Stanford. </p>

<p>I don't get how Cornell's "grad programs, primarily sciences and engineering school" would make it "definitely better known... nationally"<br>
Cornell's engineering program is far from being the best. It's the best of the Ivies, but when people think of prestigious engineering programs, they think of MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Berkley, etc. Yes, Cornell's engineering school is ranked somewhere around 10 or 15, but with graduate program rankings aren't like undergrad rankings. Only the top handful of programs are considered elite.<br>
As for Cornell's other grad programs, Cornell's medical school is probably the most prestigious of any of their grad schools, but just like Cornell's engineering program, it's good, but not one the most elite.
Cornell's law and business school aren't elite.</p>

<p>If having good grad programs automatically makes the undergrad more nationally prestigious, then wouldn't you have to say Dartmouth is really prestigious? After all, Tuck is considered by many, the <em>best</em> business school. And Dartmouth's medical school is ranked decently in primary care (top 20). </p>

<p>I have to emphasize though, prestige shouldn't be an issue. When you apply to grad school, or go for recruiting, the people will definitely know both schools. In defense of Cornell, the WSJ rankings or very slightly skewed because Cornell does have its Hotel college, and a handful of other colleges that don't exact lead directly to grad school (though many students in CALS, CAAP, HE, ILR, etc. do apply for grad school). </p>

<p>I ended up choosing Dartmouth because I wanted a smaller undergraduate student body. I wanted a place where I would always recognize people while walking on campus. Cornell has 13,000 undergrads (plus tons of grads) vs. 4,000 at Dartmouth.</p>

9

<p>I also have the dilemma have choosing between Cornell and Dartmouth, but financial aid will play a huge impact on my choice.</p>

<p>I think I would be happy at either school :)</p>

10

<p>I almost forgot to mention,</p>

<p>Another reason I chose Dartmouth over Cornell was financial aid. Dartmouth's financial aid was much more straightforward. They give you a single number for the amount of grant you're receiving. Cornell on the other hand, gave me this complicated package which included something called the "Cornell Tradition" or something. It was a 4,000 dollar grant that required that I work 200 paid hours a year as a freshman, and 250 hours a year as an upperclassman. It also required that i volunteer 75 hours a year. The grant also had to be renewed every year. I didn't like the idea of my financial aid being dependent on whether I chose to work and volunteer or not.</p>

<p>Another thing you might want to consider is Dartmouth's foreign study programs. Dartmouth has a <em>large</em> number of study abroad programs for its students. Since the programs are run by Dartmouth, you get Dartmouth credit and don't have to deal with going to various departments and the registrar to get permission for transferring credits from another program. You can also study abroad earlier than students at other schools. Just on my floor of about 16 people, I'm studying abroad in China for the summer, another guy is studying in Morocco for the summer, another guy is studying in Italy in the coming fall (sophomore year), two girls are studying in Spain in the fall. We're all only freshmen.<br>
Financial aid automatically transfers over to your study abroad program. no hassles. </p>

<p>Some of Dartmouth's notable study abroad programs include a program in Washington DC where you intern full time in Congress, and a program at Keble College in Oxford for Econ. Goto <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eocp%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.dartmouth.edu/~ocp&lt;/a> for other programs.
Since Dartmouth is on the quarter system, you get to go on up to 3 study abroad programs (equiv. of a full year), without paying any extra money. </p>

<p>Some professors also offer off-campus programs abroad for off-terms (like the summer). I know one professor here brings a few students to the Marshall Islands to teach during his off-terms.</p>

11

<p>Also,</p>

<p>The D-Plan also means you can stay here sophomore summer (or study abroad in the summer another term, which satisfies the sophomore summer requirement), and then have an extra leave term junior year. Most of your important internships will happen junior year (some internship programs only take college juniors), so taking an off term then will let you have two serious internships before recruiting senior year (you might also end up getting offers junior year from your internship).</p>

12

<p>sorry, but I did not use the word "prestigious"; indeed, I specifically avoided it. For people who know both schools, there is likely little difference in prestige, bcos it really depends on the individual program -- Cornell has the hotel school, Dartmouth has Tuck, etc.</p>

<p>But, for for just being "known," Cornell gets the nod over Dartmouth both home and, in particular, abroad. Kids in Bangalore have heard of Cornell, but not many have heard of Dartmouth are any other LAC-style school. Even Penn State is much better known outside of the NE than Penn, thanks to JoPa (and huge television contracts). That doesn't make it more "prestigous," however.</p>

13

<p>thanks for all the useful feedback! </p>

<p>I have another question. If I want to study in the science/engineering/architecture, would Cornell give me an edge since its science programs are stronger?</p>

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<p>I transferred from Dartmouth into Cornell. For me, Cornell has everything Darmouth had but much more of it; do a search of my previous posts for more details. This is <em>one</em> person's experience, of course, but let me say this to "Half<em>Baked": Never has there been a more appropriate screen name for someone on CC. Whenever I see a post like this, there are ulterior motives behind it. That entire post is total absurdity. I can give you fifty rankings where Cornell is ahead of Dartmouth, then where does it leave the OP? Just as much in the dark as where he/she started. Perhaps Half</em>Baked was rejected by Cornell. Such posts are, nearly always, cleverly fabricated to assuage the poster's bruised ego.</p>

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<p>" Besides, what you're ultimately going to is a state school anyway. Except you're paying Ivy league college dues to be there. "</p>

<p>you must be as high as a kite to think that, half-baked.</p>

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<p>I'm assuming you got into A/S.</p>

<p>If you want to do architecture or engineering, you'll probably be best off going to Cornell and internally transferring to their Architecture or Engineering school. Dartmouth's engineering school isn't nearly as good as Cornell's. Dartmouth has no architecture programs.</p>

<p>For sciences, you'll get better graduate school placement and more research opportunities at Dartmouth. While there are probably many great biology research opportunities at Cornell, Dartmouth's medical school is on-campus, while Cornell's is in New York City. In general, the strength of the college you're going to is more important that the strength of your major department at your college, at least when it comes to grad school admissions. Overall, Dartmouth is viewed in a more favorable light than Cornell is when it comes to undergraduate education, and thus tends to get better grad school placement.</p>

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<p>It was a 4,000 dollar grant that required that I work 200 paid hours a year as a freshman, and 250 hours a year as an upperclassman. It also required that i volunteer 75 hours a year. The grant also had to be renewed every year. I didn't like the idea of my financial aid being dependent on whether I chose to work and volunteer or not.</p>

<p>Wait a minute, you didn't like Cornell's financial aid because they offered you a scholarship, merit-based program?</p>

<p>Are you freakin' serious?</p>

18

<p>
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Wait a minute, you didn't like Cornell's financial aid because they offered you a scholarship, merit-based program?

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It was NOT a merit based scholarship (ivy league schools don't give merit based scholarship). In the end, Cornell and Dartmouth gave the same amount of grants, but $4000 of Cornell's grants had the requirements I mentioned before. At Dartmouth I can choose not to work for a term to concentrate on studies without having my financial aid decreased.</p>

<p>And yes, I'm freakin' serious.</p>

19

<p>actually, the Cornell tradition is a pretty cool scholarship type of thing. Part of it is like work-study (like at any school), but the volunteer thing is a little different and unique. In the past, students have ralied together and done some wonderful things for the community and the school.</p>

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<p>half_baked and the others who are citing WSJ as a reason Cornell isn't as good. I argue that the WSJ rankings should not apply to Cornell to the same extent as most other schools on the list. If you look at the methodology for the WSJ rankings, you'll see that it's a simple division: those attending those top 5 professional schools divided by total class size.<br>
Cornell has many more specialized programs that DO NOT lead to professional school of any kinda. Dartmouth, being more of a LAC, would have more students who plan on attending med/law/b-school right after graduation. Cornell's Hotel, Architecture, Engineering, and other similar fields usually lead directly into industry post-graduation; these students (for the most part) do not even consider professional school. Additionally, being a large research university, many students will get involved in that and continue in academia, going to grad school in their specific field. Again, these students also exist in big numbers at Cornell. While I'm sure a school like Dartmouth also has these students, I argue that Cornell has a much greater percentage of students who do not even think about going to professional school. In fact, Cornell's style of education tends to not lead towards these professional schools; we have less of an emphasis on the liberal arts education (though you can certainly find it here) and more on practical, real-world knowledge. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but one is more conducive to doing well in the WSJ rankings. Cornell simply has too many students who do not consider law/med/business schools so Cornell doesn't do as well in those rankings. If you look at the raw number accepted, Cornell does just as well as any non HYPS school (I know this argument is flawed in the other direction--surely some sort of percentage is requried to compare schools of similar size). WSJ would be better if it could instead divide by the number of students applying to those schools, not by the entire student body.</p>

<p>Also, to iggyb387, I fail to see the reason for having an on-campus med school increasing research opportunities. Cornell has such a huge faculty and so many facilities that you can find research as long as you want it. Cornell is more research focused than Dartmouth (possibly to the extent that teaching suffers a bit), so I fail to see how research is lacking here. I believe that no other non-HYPSM school has the breadth and depth of research opportunities that Cornell has (except state schools, but thats just because of sheer size and relatively unmotivated student populations).</p>