Costs for fraternity--who pays?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I think that Rileydog sums it up pretty well</p>

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<p>Sometimes it is not even a matter of whether or not you support something (I was supportive of her decision to go greek) or whether or not you can afford to pay for it (I like many other parents posting can afford to pay if it were our choice to do so). It is moreso about letting your child know that they need to have some skin in the game; having some responsibilty, accountabilty and ownership for the choices that they make, managing their money, living within their means, or even finding a way to pay for something that is important to them.</p>

<p>If your child decides to go greek, what is wrong with him/her being an active participant in the financing of activity?</p>

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<p>well then you got the answer… have him paid for himself!</p>

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<p>Jags,</p>

<p>I think you may suffer from what several kids on this site do… it’s an ailment called.. my parents owe me…</p>

<p>Son, after 18 anything and everything you get from mom and dad is gravy. They don’t have to, they may choose to, but they don’t have to. I would hope that you are smart enough to be grateful of any money that leaves their wallets from the day after you graduate HS. As such, I would hope that you are appreciative of that. Expectations of something that doesn’t have to be there often leads to disappointment. </p>

<p>That said, I think your finding more parents like myself that feel part of our kids “growing up” is going from them asking for something to just doing it for themselves, by themselves.. Most of we parents, look forward to that day as it truly is the first steps towards being an adult. It doesn’t come at a certain age as there are “children” who are my age and there are “adults” younger than you. I guess what I am saying is regardless of my ability to pay for something, it is far more important that my kid learns that paying for it himslef is far more important than the thing itself. </p>

<p>The added bonus to that aspect is I go from telling him what to do, to “advising” him about what to do. Believe me, for most kids that’s a wonderful feeling. The day you don’t “have” to do what your parents say, but choose to… freedom..</p>

<p>From the adult side of things, that’s what I raised, an adult. I don’t want a child-adult who can never do without me. To me, that would mean failure in my parenting skills. I hope you understand my point.</p>

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<p>I see all of ya’ll’s points and respect them, but to give you the other view point (which I hope ya’ll respect as well) -</p>

<p>I know that my kids appreciate everything that we have done for them. They honestly never ask for things beyond birthday and Christmas presents. They value what they get, and don’t EXPECT things. To me, that means that they don’t have entitlement issues. </p>

<p>But, we fund their expenses, whether it be tuition, room and board, club dues, fraternity dues, what have you. We just consider those things to be a portion of college costs. Money has been put aside for those expenses, and whatever they don’t spend while in college will be theirs when they get out. It isn’t effecting our retirement at all, it’s only effecting their “nest egg”.</p>

<p>Maybe it is because both my husband and I were in greek organizations and our parents paid for it. To us, it is a valuable part of a college experience, but it is their choice if they want to be involved or not. My older son wanted no part of it, and that was fine with us. Our next son is happily involved in a fraternity and that is fine with us too.</p>

<p>To each his own.</p>

<p>As a side note, I am seeing what some of the dues cost in other posts and they are cheap. My son worked this last summer (when he wasn’t in summer school), making minimum wage, and he didn’t make 1/2 of what his yearly dues are. So, I don’t know how a kid (who attends where he does) could pay the dues for 4 years by working a summer job, unless it was a good one…</p>

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<p>ag54, my d is very much like your kids - she doesn’t have a sense of entitlement. As strange as that may seem, that makes me more likely to pay for things she wants. If she came in demanding my money for something optional, my initial reaction would probably be, “No.” But if she comes to me and says, “This is what I’d like to do and here’s why”, my reaction is much more likely to be, “How can I help?”</p>

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<p>Well, we live in one of Forbe’s highest cost of living locations - putting away enough money for the cost of private (or in our case, expensive OOS) college was a formidable and impossible challenge for us, even with both of us working full time for all of our kids’ lives and before. I see you are in Texas ag54 - just wonder if you are in a different place re: money and COL so that you don’t have to question the “value” of this expense re: your son’s college education. I feel that I have to make those choices financially, as well as morally. I suppose, if you did not pay for you son’s dues he would have to work two jobs on campus to pay for them. That is what I did when I was a student to pay for my books and living expenses - I did work study and then I held a regular job as well. This brings me back to why I don’t pay for my son’s dues to belong to a Greek organization. Only those who can afford to pay the dues and the other associated expenses belong, because, in fact, it excludes those who cannot pay, ensuring that brothers and sisters hang with the haves and not with the have nots. If parents stopped paying Greek organization dues, I wonder how long Greek life would last at a$1000 per year, especially at the private schools?</p>

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<p>Rileydog, you bring up an interesting point. I wonder if there is a difference in the culture of private vs. public university greeks. For example, most kids at my childrens’ college are on bright futures scholarships, which means at a minimum, free tuition and a book stipend. That
means you don’t necessarily have to be a “have” (as opposed to a “have-not”) to belong to a greek organization (or any organization requiring dues). I’m getting a little personal here, but including incidentals like personal expenses, R&B, car insurance, organizational dues (including fraternity), entertainment, etc… my total out of pocket does not exceed $20K a year. I am certainly happy that my son, in spite of knowing that, chooses to work summers and part time during school to contribute. If, however, he attended a school that cost us $50K a year, we certainly could not contribute toward much of anything extra, and all his summer/part time dollars would go toward the necessities.</p>

<p>Which leads me to believe that the greek population at private colleges may be much more affluent than that on public campuses?</p>

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<p>Where the cost of living is higher, the salaries are commensurate. We live in the DC area. In the DOD, there is a wide variety of housing allowances based on COL. As an example, an O-5 with dependents would draw different rates that varies by city. The DC rate is $2709, the Houston area (which gets the highest DOD rate in TX) is $2283, and Boston (highest in MA) is $2963. I don’t have civvy rates but obviously salaries are higher in high-cost areas.</p>

<p>Our D goes to a private college. We pay her college expenses, she finances her Greek expenses. She is hardly the only student at her school to have this arrangement. I am sure she has to sacrifice a little to make her dues but it is well worth it to her. </p>

<p>One thing I have never regretted was my decision to pledge a Greek organization in college. The benefits I received through my membership over my lifetime have far exceeded the dues I paid back in the 1980s.</p>

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<p>Our sons’ fraternity expenses are quite different:</p>

<p>Middle son - large public university (UT Austin) - $6000/year ($6500 pledge year) includes a meal plan - to live there costs more</p>

<p>Oldest son - small, ivy league school - roughly $800-1000/year
no meal plan (more to live there but about the same cost as a dorm)</p>

<p>We do pay for their dues. UT son agonized over the cost, but still, his overall expenses are roughly half that of oldest son. Their greek involvement has greatly enhanced their college life, they appreciate it and tell us so, and as long as they continue to do well, we are ok with it. That said, it’s still a very personal decision for each family to make.</p>

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<p>Motherdear - not true. Forbes chose Essex County, MA because the pay was NOT commensurate with the expense of living there <a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13815751/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13815751/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>I have no idea what you are referring to re: DOD but I have yet to see an increase in my pay commensurate with the increased cost of just about anything in this area. </p>

<p>newtoallthis - I am glad that things have gone well for your sons in frats. I wanted my son to meet lots of different people, to learn not to fear different people by living with them, to develop a broader awareness of others etc. Frats do not encourage the type of exposure I wanted him to have and I don’t think I will ever get over my disappointment in his joining and staying in a frat. Having been to college I know that it is easier to hang around with people just like you but it sure isn’t as enriching and it sure isn’t as broadening an experience. My son would also tell you that being in a frat has greatly enhanced his college life. I think being in the frat gave him one college experience that he believes enhanced his college life but we will never know if not being in a frat would have enhanced his college experience even more. As a parent, I think his time could have been much better spent exploring what the university had to offer, meeting new people, stretching himself a little, rather than overseeing pledges, getting signatures for a paddle, etc. I am hoping to find a school with no frats for son #2 who thinks all this “fratboy” stuff is cool. </p>

<p>Wow - $6000 to be in a frat - what does tuition cost at his school? Do you know where the money goes? A meal plan can’t be that much? When my son first joined I did a little checking on the expense - apparently a lot of it goes to throw parties and the rest to the main organization. What does $6000 include? I am just astonished at that expense. In Texas, do people identify by their fraternities and sororities long past college?</p>

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<p>Motherdear - When students are struggling to pay tuition, books, living expenses themselves, it is easier to see that fraternity dues are an unnecessary and even frivolous expense and that participation is only available to those who can pay. This means that those who cannot are not entitled to the lifelong benefits that you enjoyed. Why have an institution that divides students into the haves and have nots on campus? To me, college is where we hope that students will learn from a variety of experiences, not one experience over and over again. Many of the parents here do not seem to know kids who pay their own way, or substantially their own way, or who do not have spending money for a Starbucks every day. I know a young man who could not afford board despite financial aid and slept on the floor of his friends’ dorm rooms and used the school computers. Many times he had no place to sleep and slept in lounges. I am so proud of this kid who graduated with degrees in CS and physics despite living in significant poverty at school. When you meet kids like this, the idea of a frat or sorority on campus for the purpose of having a special clique that you purchase, something that is not open to everyone just seems so ridiculous and divisive.</p>

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<p>Kid who are Greek are hardly limited to participating only in their organization. They benefit from being active in a variety of college experiences from student government, intercollegiate athletics, intramural competitions, honor societies. Many of these organizations also have fees such as the club sport dues of $1000 cited by a previous poster. Perhaps we should also ban that activity because it may be not be of interest to everyone or not everyone can afford it.</p>

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<p>Greek organizations are social clubs that evaluate individuals for membership based on personality and their abilitly to “fit in” with the other members. They include and exclude individuals via a voting process! That is hardly the same as a club sport where ability and experience will play a role in membership. Organizations that are sponsored by the school typically do have the ability to wave fees for those who truly cannot pay.</p>

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<p>“Greek organizations are social clubs that evaluate individuals for membership based on personality and their abilitly to “fit in” with the other members.”</p>

<p>Take out “social” and so do employers. ;)<br>
There are other aspects, according to my son. His fraternity looks for members who will make high grades (they like to be at the top of the “average GPA” list), and bring skills to the house that will help grow the organization. They recruit future leaders who will be able to interface with the university; run recruitment and pledge development programs; provide stewardship over finances (hopefully avoiding $6K a year dues! :eek:); maintain the actual structure of the house including repairs, minor renovations, meals, cleaning, and routine maintenance; organize charity, fundraising, and social events; enforce rules and disciplinary procedures…the list goes on and on. Fraternities who are unable to do these things, instead opting for an animal house existence, eventually find themselves on a downward spiral. </p>

<p>The recruitment process is the place where good candidates are found; the development of those candidates into contributing members is the responsibility of the organization. </p>

<p>The other day, S and I had a discussion about what the fraternity “looked for” (he was on the recruitment committee). He said, “basically it’s simple. We want smart people. We want people who can hold a conversation. If a guy comes in during recruitment and won’t talk to you, he’s not going to get a bid. If one of our friends (girls) goes up to a guy and he runs away from her, that’s not good. He doesn’t have to be a player, just be able to hold a conversation. We look for people who seem like they’d be committed and responsible.” To some extent, clothing does come into play. There is a typical “uniform” that most greeks tend to dress in, or rather, clothing they tend to avoid. For someone who wishes to join, it would be advisable to heed that dress code, just as you would if you were trying to get a job somewhere.</p>

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<p>Rileydog, you obviously are anti-Greek and that is fine, it is your perogotive. But, to close your eyes to the benefits that OTHERS find in the greek system is espousing the very close minded attitude that you are railing against. </p>

<p>I think it is important as a parent to teach your kids to be open to all kinds of people and situations. Hence, I didn’t push either of my college kids toward making any kind of decision on greek life. I let them make their own choice. </p>

<p>An open mind means being open to ALL type of life style choices and not judging people based upon the choice they make (unless it is illegal, thus being judgeable ;))</p>

<p>You asked where the approximately $6,000 in dues at UT go - try taking a look at the expenses of maintaining property in Austin, especially large parcels of land with enormous houses. The taxes per year are astounding, epecially because they are taxed as if they are apartment housing instead of private residences. Add to that the cost of maintaining the property, plus the cost of dues to the university IFC (which are about $200.00 per member, in a house with 200 guys, that equals $40,000) Then add in the cost of dues payable to the national fraternity, which varies by chapter. Then add in the cost of salary to the house mother or house man (in the case of my son’s fraternity). I could go on and on. What you don’t add in is the cost of alcohol. It is in the national and university by laws that dues cannot be used for alcohol. That is why the dues are so high.</p>

<p>I also would respect the guy that you spoke of, the one who lived in poverty while earning his degree. It doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t respect the guy who was the rush captain at my son’t fraternity who is maintaining a 4.0 in business honors and is an outstanding young man. Just because someone is struggling financially doesn’t mean he is better than someone who isn’t. They are just people doing the best they can and achieving success. I respect that!</p>

<p>Yes, I live in a place where the cost of living is less than where you live. Lucky me! But, how we chose to save and how we choose to live is our choice, and I would hope that you can respect that, just as I respect your choices. If one of my kids goes to a $45,000 a year private school, then he won’t have the money to spend on fraternity dues. They’ve got what they’ve got and what they choose to do with it (besides blowing it on a car or something) is their choice.</p>

<p>And, please stop with the “buying of friends” line - that is so old and is so ridiculous!</p>

<p>Yes, we keep up relations with our greek friends after graduating. But, it isn’t because we were greek - it’s because we were, and are, friends. I have plenty of friends who weren’t greek and certainly don’t think any less of them for it. I have friends who married young and friends who married when they were older. I have friends who came from wealthy families and friends who didn’t. I have friends who like pets and those who don’t. I don’t judge them for their choices, I judge them on whether I like to hang around with them or not.</p>

<p>Okay, that’s enough disjointed thought for the morning, I need a cup of coffee :)</p>

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<p>So do admissions offices :)</p>

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<p>As I think I have mentioned, my son is in a frat - his decision. I didn’t and don’t agree with it but I still pay the tuition and his room/board every month. I could have taken a stand and refused to pay the tuition, and believe me, I thought about it because I do feel strongly, but that would not be very accepting of others lifestyles and choices and I do my best to model and live by that heartfelt belief. You are entitled to your opinion - I don’t think my comments should have provoked such a defensive reaction. However, if truth be told, the public image of Greek life is one that participants do constantly have to defend whether it is accurate or not - the public sees Greeks along the lines of Animal House so it does not surprise me that participants feel the need to defend Greek life. Maybe it is different in Texas. I have found that any negative comment about Greek life on this board draws firey responses from those who participated. </p>

<p>I think it’s great that your son’s frat is one of the frats that seeks academically qualified students and future leaders of America. But, II have yet to receive a response to a comment on frats that does not elicit the same response - my son’s frat has the highest GPA, does the most charity, is involved in government, etc. None of these wonderful things are exclusive to frats and they do not address the issues I speak about - exclusivity, financial discrimination and just plain old fairness. It all comes down to how you view college. I view it in the ideal - a level playing field where students from many diverse backgrounds and experiences (ah, the melting pot of America) come together and grow together by sharing community, knowledge, every day life, and histories. In the ideal, colleges support that type of sharing to truly grow our future leaders, who have to be able to communicate with someone who wears jeans from Walmart as well as Vineyard VInes clothing, and someone whose native language is not English as well as the most recent legacy brother or sister. </p>

<p>Like you I do try to keep an open mind about individuals. I can forgive a young person for joining a social club when they wanted to feel safe and connected in college but I cannot forgive the colleges for allowing them to take the place of other social opportunities. There are numerous studies that associate frats with higher rates of assault, binge drinking and overall (not your son’s frat), reduced GPAs. I am not sure what the benefits are to society - and that is the bigger picture to me. I think they are not helpful in bringing our melting pot society together. Kids have the rest of their lives to join country clubs, form social cliques, play beer pong, etc (smile).</p>

<p>Motherdear - Employers in what fields? I do a lot of hiring and I would run the other way from a resume that listed a fraternity position or a sorority position on the resume because my experience with the former president of her sorority has taught me that those skills do not transfer well to the type of work that we do. </p>

<p>Admissions offices - I am shocked to see that comparison. The concept of “fit” seems so much different to me for colleges. One may be distressed that colleges appear to be too focused on diversity but at least they “get it”!</p>

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<p>As parents and as people, we respond to the experiences we’ve had. Rileydog, your past posts indicate that your son’s fraternity experience has not been a good one for him (heck, it sounds like W&M has not been a good place in general for your family). If I were in your shoes, I would have a totally different attitude toward the greek experience. My son’s grades have not been negatively impacted by joining a fraternity. If they had, I would not be so amenable to paying the dues either. BTW, the comment about clothing… S was not referring to designer labels, just a general style of dress (collared shirt, non-cargo shorts, etc.). He doesn’t wear labels (thank goodness for us!).</p>

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<p>It’s interesting to read the different views on this board. For those of you parents who are looking at schools, it makes sense to investigate the greek scene and understand the impact on the social environment. Some schools have very low percentage participation, yet the greek organizations have significant social power. </p>

<p>Even if you do this type of research, I think it’s pretty hard to predict if a particular student will find the greek scene attractive. I never would have guessed that my son would be interested…and given that his school has less than 10% participation, I thought his joining a frat was unlikely. Surprise…he’s in. </p>

<p>RileyDog…I agree with some of what you write. I have never been a fan of the greek culture..and I struggle with supporting my son’s choice at this point. But I’m trying very hard to keep an open mind and to see the positives. He’s in a very large school…and he feels happy and connected. He’s doing well academically, playing his sport, and taking on some leadership positions. The greeks are involved in a big (5 million dollar) charity event in the winter and he’s very excited about participating. In any case, I feel like I need to come off my ideal of what college is supposed to be about…and let him decide what’s right for him. And yes, he will fund those choices. </p>

<p>He wants to be treasurer of his frat next year. So I guess this is something he shouldn’t put on his resume?</p>

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<p>Toneranger -
My son also, to our surprise, joined an (unhoused) fraternity in his junior year, at a school with a low percentage of fraternity members. Many of his fraternity brothers are very high achievers, not slackers at all. Anyway, he did include his fraternity affiliation and leadership position in his frat (not as high an office as Treasurer) on his resume for internships and permanent jobs, and it does not seemed to have hurt him, as he has done well in getting excellent job offers.</p>