Course 6 advising

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1

<p>I read Advising:students part of the Course 6 website with amazement. Is this really the attitude of the department? This does not, to say the least, convey a culture of caring or even, for that matter, courtesy. I am curious about the experiences of students who are in or have been in electrical engineering. Is this how things are?</p>

<p>Excerpts from: MIT</a> EECS - Undergraduate Academic Advising</p>

<p>What is Realistic to Expect from your Academic Advisor?</p>

<p>While some advisors respond promptly and consistently to email messages, some never respond at all and others seem to wait for days. If you really need to reach your advisor, email, call, and drop by. In many cases, it's key to email the assistant as well as the professor…</p>

<p>Students should never assume that their advisor will be in. Always make an appointment at least a week ahead of time. Students should not be overly upset at being 'stood up' occasionally. Professors really can be absent-minded, and plans do change. Keep making appointments…</p>

<p>Students should not expect their advisors to take all the initiative. Advisors will not usually contact students just to see how their term is going... It would be nice if advisors would make the effort themselves, but most of them need to be encouraged. The student should take responsibility for initiating contact, and feel brave enough to be persistent…</p>

<p>While advisors are encouraged to be familiar with Department and Institute administrative procedures, many of them are extremely impatient with bureaucracy and paperwork, a failing with which most students should sympathize…</p>

<p>Similarly, advisors are not ultimately responsible for saving students from administrative disaster. Don't expect your advisor to warn you about every possible pitfall. You, not your advisor, are responsible…</p>

<p>Students often expect to be able to drop off petitions, Add/Drop forms, etc. with the advisor or his or her assistant, and assume that the advisor will sign them and see that they are sent on to the appropriate office. This is asking for disaster…</p>

<p>Don't change advisors just because:
• Your advisor is late or stands you up once or twice when you had an appointment (you'll do it too);
• Your advisor is too busy to see you for a week (everybody is busy sometimes);
• Your advisor doesn't know or much care about the details of the Institute requirements (that's your job);
• Your advisor doesn't ever email you …
• Your advisor flubs your name (lots of students can't remember their advisors' names);</p>

<p>Change Your Advisor When:
• You feel disliked or have a major disagreement, and never want to see your advisor again (but calm down first);
• Your advisor is clearly and consistently totally uninterested in you (despite lots of initiative on your part);
• You and your advisor never agree on anything;
• Your advisor makes you feel that you are unwelcome except on Registration Day;
• Your advisor consistently depresses you by undervaluing your abilities and potential;
• Your advisor displays signs of racial, gender, ethnic, or any other prejudice against you.</p>

2

<p>Your advisor will be an MIT professor: this means that your advisor will be extremely busy, and that you will be far from the most important thing in his/her life. Which is a good thing, because that also means your advisor is going to be totally awesome.</p>

<p>I’m in course 6-7, which means I get an advisor in course 6 and another advisor in course 7. Soon I’ll also be course 18, which means that next semester I’ll get another advisor in course 18. I also have a mentor at my UROP, and the PI of the lab in addition. There are a lot of adults I can go to. I feel very, very cared about. </p>

<p>Me and my course 6 advisor are extremely close. Last semester was rough for me; she helped me build a plan to make the rest of my semesters better. We meet at least twice a semester. She emails me recipes that she sends her college-aged kids. I also email her every day with the time I went to bed and the time I woke up, to help me maintain a good sleep schedule. I don’t think I would be nearly as happy if she didn’t care about me and believe in me as much as she does.</p>

3

<p>Glad you are having a great experience, lidusha. From the website, my impression is that most students’ experience with their advisors is not all recipes and bed checks.</p>

<p>Here is another excerpt from the website: [MIT</a> EECS - EECS Masters of Engineering: Thesis Guide page 7](<a href=“http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/thesis-guide-7.html]MIT”>http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/thesis-guide-7.html)</p>

<p>“The Alienated Supervisor. Students often think a supervisor has lost patience with the student and the project when it is nothing personal, just the press of other commitments. Do notreact to this situation by disappearing… Be visible and send updates even if there’s no response.”</p>

<p>I question whether the advising skills of professors are “awesome” when standing students up, not responding to emails of their research and academic advisees is the norm, and they can’t even be expected to learn the student’s name. Just wondering if this is just part of the course 6 culture, or if this advice would apply institute-wide.</p>

4

<p>Geomom, do you know a student who has had a problem with an advisor, or does your worry stem from reading this text?</p>

<p>As a faculty advisor at another institution, I was interested to read your post. The main advice for the course 6 student is:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If you really need to reach your advisor, email, call, and drop by.</p></li>
<li><p>Always make an appointment at least a week ahead of time, because advisors are busy.</p></li>
<li><p>Take the initiative to check in with your advisor each term.</p></li>
<li><p>Remember that you, not your advisor, are responsible for meeting all graduation requirements, signing and submitting all forms, etc. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Personally, I think these are realistic and reasonable messages. They hold true for the school where I teach, which is a small liberal arts college. At my institution, we always receive the highest marks for faculty advising from our students on the NSSE (National Survey of Student Engagement), a survey given to all undergraduate students. And yet we tell our students the same information. The only difference is that the message on the Course 6 website at MIT is far more transparent and upfront about how busy faculty members are. </p>

<p>My daughter had a good relationship with her advisors at MIT. Up until her senior year, she was planning to double major in Course 6 and Course 8, so she had experience in both departments (ultimately, she focused on Course 8). Maybe other students could chime in.</p>

<p>

Your impression is correct, of course. MIT students do not expect their advisors to tuck them in at night, so to speak. Under Massachusetts law, university students are considered emancipated adults, and they are expected to behave with intelligence and responsibility. The overall message on the Course 6 website, from my perspective, goes something like this: “You are responsible for the quality of your advising, and if you’re unhappy with your advisor, you can do something about it.” As a parent, I actually like that message. I didn’t send my son and daughter off to college for hand-holding.</p>

5

<p>Both my course 6 academic and thesis advisers are awesome and I have very positive relationships with both of them. That being said, I agree with all of the advice on this thread - my advisers are both very busy, and sometimes I have to hunt them down to get things signed. I’m earning my degrees, not them, and so it makes sense that I’m the one who’s responsible for getting things done in the end.</p>

6

<p>Well of course you are earning your degree, not them. But if it was just up to the student, they could learn all the material from OpenCourseWare, show proficiency, and it could all be done for a lot cheaper than 55+K for four years. So I don’t think it unreasonable to expect more than a little bit of faculty interaction during that time.</p>

<p>Also from the course 6 website: [MIT</a> EECS - EECS Information for Academic Advisors page 1](<a href=“http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/advisor-info.html]MIT”>http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/advisor-info.html)</p>

<p>“Although some students and faculty interact outside the classroom, it is not uncommon for an undergraduate to go through MIT without knowing any faculty member well enough to discuss with them topics such as personal motivations and goals, thics, lifestyles, tec., in addition to academic plans.”</p>

7

<p>There is faculty interaction available, if you want it and are willing to get it for yourself. It’s going to cost you a lot more than $55k a year to hire someone with a PhD to babysit your kid full-time and make sure they take advantage of all the opportunities that MIT has to offer.</p>

<p>I don’t really know what you’re expecting to hear. This is typical of a research university. Maybe smaller liberal arts colleges have more hand-holding.</p>

8

<p>Taken out of context, that quote Geomom provided does sound harsh:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>But the entire paragraph is actually recommending that advisors forge a personal connection with their students. This text comes from a page providing guidance to advisors. Here’s the full paragraph:</p>

<p>The educational process at MIT is centered around the interaction between faculty and students. Academic advising is as important to student education as classroom teaching and research supervision. In our engineering subjects, classroom time is usually focused on the technical subject matter, but discussion of broader issues is also important to students’ education. Although some students and faculty interact outside the classroom, it is not uncommon for an undergraduate to go through MIT without knowing any faculty member well enough to discuss with them topics such as personal motivations and goals, thics, lifestyles, tec., in addition to academic plans. Through such discussions, the advisor can make a unique input to the student’s education. At the same time, the advisor will be improving his or her abilities as a teacher and advisor by learning about the concerns of students in greater depth and breadth.</p>

9

<p>Cal Alum, </p>

<p>Yes, I thought that whole section “Information for Academic Advisors” was pretty good. (I limited myself on the length of quote because the terms of service says not to quote at length.) It seems to be encouraging advisors to a higher standard.</p>

<p>All organizations have a group culture, and most academic departments have their own subculture. I guess my main question was whether the course 6 culture is really as unappealing as the advice to undergraduates on academic advising made it out to be. I found k4r3n2’s answer really helpful in this regard.</p>

10

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<p>I think it can be quite difficult to understand just how smart one has to be in order to be an MIT professor in course 6. I am fortunate to know some of them, and they are just brilliant. </p>

<p>Many of these people are the rock stars of their respective fields. Many are worth tens, hundreds of millions and yes even billions from companies that they’ve started. I took an acoustics class from Amar Bose when I was an undergraduate. A more inspirational professor you could not meet. He actually talked to ME a few times. Life changing! So much of how I think came from paying attention to him. </p>

<p>For a student, learning that their professor’s time is worth a whole lot more than their own is critical in order for them to get the most out of student-faculty interactions. I don’t care how much you pay, you’re not going to get on their radar unless you’re prepared to put in the effort and meet with them prepared, and you’re not going to find a sympathetic ear to whining about it, because 90% of the people who applied to MIT would be happy to take your place in a heartbeat. </p>

<p>If this is unacceptable, you need to find a liberal arts college where the professors are paid to teach and coddle. MIT professors are paid to lead research and inspire. Most are amazing at both.</p>

11

<p>^ <a href=“http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/bose-gift.html[/url]”>http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/bose-gift.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

12

<p>Oh, I don’t know that anyone would consider a liberal arts college as an alternative to MIT. I was struck, however, by the difference in tone between the Academic Guide for Undergraduates and their Advisors of the physics department at MIT</p>

<p>[MIT</a> - Academic Guide: 1. UNDERGRADUATES AND THEIR ADVISORS](<a href=“Advising resources | MIT Registrar”>Advising resources | MIT Registrar)</p>

<p>and the earlier linked course 6 guidelines. I just thought the Physics Department sounded friendly and helpful, and the EE department, well, harsh. The responses from the EE alums have pretty much confirmed those impressions. Thanks! This was useful!</p>

13

<p>I’m pretty shocked that they would actually put on the MIT EECS website that you should expect to have your advisor not show up for appointments with you. Also, your advisor should have knowledge about what the requirements are for your major. </p>

<p>My experience is that mileage can vary. It really depends on the prof.</p>

<p>However, I wouldn’t call it “hand-holding” to want to have some career advice from someone ahead of them in their career by 20-30 years.</p>

14

<p>

Me too, and that’s the only part I think is really problematic. I think it’s reasonable to tolerate re-scheduling from your advisor, but I don’t think no-shows are okay at all.</p>

<p>I see where the department is coming from on the “you’re responsible for knowing the requirements” bit. Some of the requirements for a degree are complex, like the HASS requirement, and it’s important for students to realize that they are ultimately responsible for taking the correct courses to graduate on time. I agree that the advisors should be basically familiar with requirements in the major, but I see the point in reminding students that the final responsibility lies with them.</p>

<p>As a graduate student, I see this as common-sense advice for dealing with my advisor and with members of my dissertation advisory committee. But it surprises me, too, that it would be up in such bald-faced terms as advice from a department for its undergraduates.</p>

15

<p>I like Stanford’s advice on this matter. I don’t intend to set up a “which is better Stanford or MIT” debate here. I was just curious and looking around the web at the advice other universities offer on this issue.</p>

<p>[Working</a> with Faculty | Undergraduate Academic Life](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/AP_working_faculty_WorkingWithFaculty.html]Working”>http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/AP_working_faculty_WorkingWithFaculty.html)</p>

<p>“Take the opportunity to ask professors whose teaching you admire to talk over dinner with your friends about what inspires them and how they chose their particular paths.
Don’t hesitate to contact the professor of a course in which you’re interested to get more explicit information about it. Professors always enjoy discussing their fields of interest, especially with intellectually curious students.”</p>

<p>This advice was also particularly good.
<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/sites/default/files/common/docs/uar_tipsforworkingwithfaculty.pdf[/url]”>http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/sites/default/files/common/docs/uar_tipsforworkingwithfaculty.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

16

<p>For what it’s worth, Anne Hunter is amazing at helping students find a faculty adviser that meets their needs, and encouraging students to switch advisers if things aren’t working out. The one thing I’m annoyed about is that some professors only advise graduate students and don’t advise undergraduate students.</p>

<p>My adviser has always had time to meet with me to discuss my academic plans, and I tend to randomly run into him every week or two in the Stata Center even if I haven’t planned to make an appointment.</p>

17

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<p>I agree - every year, I only learn more about how incredibly tough it is to match what such people do.</p>

<p>That said…</p>

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<p>I think some of these statements are exaggerated beyond the point of necessity, and I don’t believe how much someone’s time is “worth” is a philosophical question worth getting into here - correct me if wrong.</p>

<p>How much of a rockstar a professor is really has nothing to do with whether he/she puts in time into being a good adviser. Frequently, it is more of a reflection on the professor’s time-management skills. I have been time and again astonished how some of the most brilliant professors who are simultaneously personable and thus have tons of students (both undergraduate and graduate) go to them for advising still manage to honor all their commitments, and be helpful when you talk to them.</p>

<p>I think what has helped me most is being sympathetic to their needs. Having several PhD students to advise, classes to teach, and research to do AND undergraduates to advise is quite a lot of responsibility. My understanding is that the biggest issue is having potential disruption to the rest of their work. So they usually like to get these things done in one sitting. To develop sympathy – try doing what they do, or some approximation of it, with an extremely full academic schedule.</p>

18

<p>^I totally agree.</p>

<p>It is clear, though, that some students (undergrads, mostly, but also beginning grad students) don’t have the proper professional boundaries in place when dealing with their teachers/mentors/advisors, and those students may need to be smacked with a rather blunt cluestick in order to get it. </p>

<p>As a TA last fall at that other school in Cambridge, I was somewhat horrified by some of the emails students would send the professor of the course (who is my thesis advisor) – chatty, stream-of-consciousness missives, some asking questions that were better addressed to me as senior TA, others asking for last-minute deadline extensions, etc. He was always very gracious, but these were really unprofessional intrusions on the life of a very busy senior professor. Knowing how busy he is, and how many emails he gets per hour, I have (I think) never sent him an unsolicited email in five years. I would consider calling him on the phone iff the lab were burning down.</p>

<p>But the key is for students to learn how to develop professional relationships with their mentors. It’s not that professors are exalted gods on puffy white clouds, throwing thunderbolts at groveling students; it’s that they’re accomplished leaders in your field who can make a difference in your career. You want to make and maintain a great impression.</p>

19

<p>Just as an update: The course 6 website underwent a significant overhaul shortly after this thread ended last year. Not only is the information better (and more upbeat!) it looks a lot more professional. (The old orange, red, and black color scheme was, shall we say, interesting).</p>

<p>Geoson did decide to do course 6 as a second major. Anne Hunter was super helpful as predicted and he got an adviser in his sub-field. The new adviser met with him and provided much useful advice, and well as a list of professors that he should go talk to about research projects. He interviewed those professors, narrowed it down to two labs to UROP in, and now has decided to continue on in one of those labs for an MEng.</p>

<p>All good!</p>