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<p>Chances predictions here on CC are almost always too pessimistic.</p>
<p>^^^: By CC I meant to say D’s school College Counselor and not this board.</p>
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<p>Thanks for letting me know. In that case, I have no opinion about what that person said, which may be based on recent experience at that school.</p>
<p>It was absolutely a good decision to stick with the difficult classes. I know I don’t really belong in this forum (as a student) but I figured I’d give a quick anecdote.</p>
<p>I took the hardest courseload in my school, a public school which is rather strange because their are a lot of high GPAs but most everyone goes to a state school. We send somebody to a top school maybe once every few years.</p>
<p>My class rank ended up at around 13% when I applied to colleges this year and I thought I would be hurt because of it. It would have been at least top 5 percent if weighted, probably better. I had no major issues in applying to top schools. Sure I didn’t get in everywhere, but I ended up with just three rejections and seven acceptances. I don’t regret taking hard classes in the least bit–they prepared me for college. Trust me, a top school will know if you take easy classes for class rank purposes. It paid off in the end and I’m ending up at a top five LAC.</p>
<p>Keep in mind also that Parent of Ivy Hope thinks that the only top schools are, like his/her name suggests, in the Ivy League. Not making a judgement, just stating a fact. If you’re aiming for Harvard, than you will probably need perfect grades AND the toughest courseload. But for the schools you talked about, the tough courseload is the more important factor.</p>
<p>RE post #29, most of the good students at our school take AP Euro in 10th grade; the teacher gives very few A’s but there are a lot of kids with 5’s on the exam. Which leads one to believe that she’s grading too hard.</p>
<p>I agree with GroovyGeek and ParentofIvyHope. It was not a joke to say take AP classes and get As. Unweighted GPA is also very important. A SAT score above 2300 does not compensate for a weak GPA(I mean around 3.6/3.7) unless you have hooks.</p>
<p>Even at Harvard you don’t need perfect grades. I admit my son was a legacy, but he had B’s in English every year except senior year when he dropped from honors to regular and finally got an A (due to scheduling issues). He did have stellar grades otherwise and an 800 on the CR part of the SAT, so there were mitigating factors. But even at Harvard lots and lots of valedictorians get turned down for more interesting kids.</p>
<p>I will add that I heard a Yale admissions officer say with my very own ears when asked if it was better to get an A in honors or a B in AP, that it was better to get an A in the AP. She kind of winced as she said it, but in general that is the way it is.</p>
<p>OK, I don’t think most of the posters here get it. Read the book “The Gatekeepers”.</p>
<p>Adcoms at ALL the top 20 LACs, and most of the top 20 Universities read your ENTIRE transcript, word for word. They don’t need to see your GPA or class rank. They look at each sememster of school, the EXACT classes the applicant took, and make an evaluation. “averages” mean nothing. They’re like that old Juan Valdez coffee commercial, where he sifts through all the coffee beans, picking out the bad beans. Adcoms notice classes that are “bad beans”. The adcom makes 20 individual evaluations (most schools have 5 “core” courses each year. TWENTY evaluations, not one average.</p>
<p>The adcoms can sniff out an unchallenged grade grubber within ten seconds. They read the teacher recommendations very carefully to answer the question: “does this applicant have a genuine passion for learning?”. The first clue is the number of AP courses taken vs. those offered. They have no patience for students who did not take the hardest possible curriculum. Why should they? The Top 20 schools are looking for the top one or two percent of all graduates. They don’t have room for more.</p>
<p>And here’s the thing – if a student does not want, or cannot handle the very hardest curriculum offered at a high school, how do you expect they’ll handle the coursework at the most demanding colleges? Where the average course is much, much more difficult than the hardest class in high school? They won’t!</p>
<p>Trust the system… the colleges that accept an applicant do so because the applicant is matched to their environment and will do well there. The applicants who are not accepted would probably not have thrived or enjoyed it there anyway.</p>
<p>You cannot cheat the system, fake out the adcoms, or slide in on the easy.</p>
<p>wow what an interesting debate.</p>
<p>mathmom: yes, I also clearly remember the Yale adcom saying that. Guess D isn’t going to Yale, then, lol.</p>
<p>Everyone at highly selective colleges says that.</p>
<p>The fact is, if you aren’t the sort of student who takes a challenging curriculum, you’re not even in the running. Then, among that group, the ones who do best obviously have some advantage over the ones who do less best.</p>
<p>I’ll note, though, that my son’s school buddy now at Yale did NOT take Physics C, and did NOT get all As in the APs she did take. What she did do was two years of French literature courses at Penn, and stand out in all of her humanities and social science courses. (Lots of leadership and public service, too. A completely great kid.) Her grades were good enough for a high class rank, but she wasn’t perfect by any means.</p>
<p>It’s a real delicate dance - you simply need to challenge yourself as much as you possibly can while maintaining your best possible grades. Also, keep in mind that you need to do more than just “get the A” in at least a couple of classes - you need to really impress the teacher and get to know him or her so that you can count on some good letters. </p>
<p>The kids in my D’s graduating hs class who were the most aggressive with APs (17!!) had high but not tremendous gpa’s. They were a little disappointed with their admissions results. Students who took a more measured approach and finished with higher gpa’s seemed to do a bit better in selective admissions. This is hardly a broad sampling - just one small high school. Good luck!</p>
<p>To add onto mammall’s comment, it seemed to be the same at my high school. I think that has something to do with the fact that people who take 17 APs are CLEARLY doing it only for college admissions purposes and not genuinely interested in every single subject.</p>
<p>On the other hand, people who take a measured number of APs in an area that is clearly their passion–perhaps they write an essay about it or explain it–even if they don’t take every AP, will often do just as well if not better in admissions.</p>
<p>mammall, I think you’ve identified the other extreme… </p>
<p>I’ll bet <em>part</em> of the “take the most rigourous curriculum your school offers” advice stems from the need of the adcom to see if a student can handle a rigorous course load. That is a combination of intelligence, emotional stability, time management, and testing skills.</p>
<p>Once a student has proven that by taking, say 7-10 AP classes, I can assume the adcom would have a comfort level about the student’s ability to handle a tough load. Beyond 10 APs, it seems to me the student is reaching a point of diminishing returns in which they begin to take too much risk that they will find their limit, bigin to burn our or withdraw from non-school commitments, and rack up a few Bs.</p>
<p>To me the preferred course is:</p>
<ul>
<li>Take 7-10 AP courses and get As</li>
<li>Take 11+ AP classes and get a few Bs</li>
<li>Take few or no AP classes and fail to prove you can handle (or demonstrate a lack of desire to take) a tough curriculum.</li>
</ul>
<p>I’ll bet 98% of adcoms interpret few/no APs as adequate domonstration that the student cannot or will not handle their elite school’s curriculum. Straight As in undemanding work only demonstrates an ability to finish at the top of the bottom 80%. How does that help an adcom identify the top half of one percent? It doesn’t!</p>
<p>I attend a competitive private school and decided to take the most competitive classes throughout high school. My GPA was low, around a 3.5 unweighted, and my rank was really low, especially for top colleges. I think it hovered around top 20%. However, I had great test scores, good ec’s, and wrote good essays.</p>
<p>I ended up getting into all of the UC’s, USC, Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, and Duke. I will be attending Duke next year. I guess everything works out in the end. I got into these schools over other students who had higher GPA’s and who took advanced courses but not to the extent that I had.</p>
<p>I think a LOT depends on your high school. My daughter did not get straight As but ended up with admissions at almost everywhere she applied including several top-20 LACs including one top-10 LAC. However, at her public high school, the top 5% all get into ivies every year and there are kids in the top 25% who get into very nice schools (UNC out-of-state, USC and such). At some of the nearby prep schools, top-25% will still get you into ivies. I think adcoms really consider the high school.</p>
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<p>Thanks for sharing that information and congratulations to your daughter.</p>
<p>What if your hs only offers a handful of AP classes, mostly senior-year courses?</p>
<p>My D’s HS offered a few APs, she has to take online courses.</p>