Opinions, observations, experiences on NO or FEW APs even if available?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Several threads here and a recent post by the College Solution Blogger (see far below) prompt me to ask this question:</p>

<p>S will be a sophomore at a top h.s. in a large city, one of Newsweek's top 100. Admission is highly selective (by test scores, grades) and all academic classes are honors classes or AP.</p>

<p>Friend's daughter went to this school; accepted into Bard (four years ago) w/two APs. Friend says daughter's friends had similar experiences, i.e., didn't load up on APs. (Don't know their GPAs; presumably they had high marks.)</p>

<p>Of course, on CC, and at S's school, APs are all the rage.</p>

<p>Do you know anyone who boycotts them even if available? Or who only took one to three but who took many honors courses and rec'd high grades?</p>

<p>Just wondering what the consequences would be if he stuck to the honors courses and took only two APs (and if Ivy League was not in the plans).</p>

<p>Thanks for your opinions and for sharing stories about others who may have taken honors classes but not APs. What happened? Where did they get accepted? Etc.</p>

<p>From College Blog Solution: Why</a> We Don’t Need Valedictorians - CBS MoneyWatch.com
"My son’s school doesn’t believe AP classes — the administration has dismissed AP classes as providing learning a mile wide and just an inch deep. And yet somehow without inflated grades and valedictorians, the teenagers at my son’s high school do all right when they apply for college. Among the 150 or so graduates on the stage were teenagers heading to Columbia University, Sarah Lawrence, Mount Holyoke, Air Force Academy, Stanford University, UCLA, University of California, Berkeley, Notre Dame and many other excellent schools.</p>

<p>These students pulled it off without completely sacrificing four years of their lives. Now that’s something to celebrate."</p>

2

<p>My understanding is that colleges look at the rigor of your high school classes based on the offerings at your high school. Therefore, if your high school doesn’t offer many AP classes then it wouldn’t matter as long as their course selections were rigorous with what was offered.</p>

<p>In my opinion, AP has its pros and cons. I know a lot of colleges will not accept certain AP tests in classes that are core to the specific major. For example, an engineering college might not take an AP Calculus test score as a replacement for Calculus, but it might regard the AP Calculus class as a sign of a student being better prepared in math.</p>

3

<p>Whether a student needs to take them or not depends on the high school. At my sons’ the top track is all AP. That is what is offered as the top track, which is only 10% or so of the student body. Your child’s school is much different and you are very fortunate - it seems like every class would offer good college preparation. But why do you feel the need to “boycott” the APs? The quality and depth of the class will depend on the teacher. I can assure you that I have heard many of my sons’ friends say that their college courses were easier than our AP Lang and AP Lit courses. I’d advise you to find the best teachers in the school and use them as your guide.</p>

4

<p>It depends on the kids and the school. If you have a kid who is a tip top student, and who is qualified to take the top track in courses, to boycott the courses because they happen to be AP courses, seems silly to me. Also foolish would be to take the courses just because they are AP when other courses are more appropriate. </p>

<p>Two of my kids went to a private preparatory school that did not designate many of their courses as AP. Those kids who took 4 years or the 4th level of a subject were told that they were likely to do well on the AP subject test on that subject and they could sign up to take the exam, but no where on the transcript or records is it indicated that they took an AP course. Only if they took the test and submitted the scores would a college know that they had a course covering AP materials. The school does extremely well in college placement, but the kids are preselected on that basis, and there are a lot of celebrity, legacy, development families in the mix. The school is also on the list of those schools that have rigorous curriculums and deflated grades so that the students are assessed with that in view.</p>

<p>Now if you have a student at a school that is not known to top colleges, it can be very important that s/he take AP or other top level courses if the most selective schools are on the list. If the school profile indicates that there are AP courses offered, and the student doesn’t have any of them on the transcript, it can send the message that the student is not taking the hardest courses available. Unless, s/he is doing something else that shows that s/he is going above and beyond the norm in pursuing academic excellence and rigor.</p>

<p>If you have a student at a top high school where a number of kids are applying to the top schools and most all of them are taking AP courses up the whazoo, and your student is not, yes, it can be a disadvantage for your student. What do you expect the adcom to think when s/he looks at that profile? Unless your student comes up with something truly remarkable,s/he is just going to look like s/he is not taking as difficult of a course load as her/his peers. </p>

<p>On the other hand, loading up on every AP avallable is not necessary. Most top schools are looking for those who have taken the AP calc, sciences and English–maybe foreign language. AP Computer programming, music theory, psychology, ecology, statistics,and even some of the histories are not really given a whole lot of weight. THere are many other things that kids can do to show proficiency and depth in those subjects. But taking an AP calc or English test and doing well on it junior year can be a big plus for a kid. </p>

<p>My oldest got into a number of top 25 schools without a lot of AP courses and he only got 3’s on the ones he did take. He did not take the heavy duty APs either. But his SAT1 and 2s were high, which counts for a lot, we were told, and his class rank was high, and his school was considered a college prep school, though not at the level that his brothers’ school was. Kids at his school did get into HPY, though not in the numbers that the ultra selective prep schools get in such admissions.</p>

<p>My rising senior has only taken AP history courses. Though he will be taking Calc, it is not AP. He has had the trinity of sciences, but not AP. He’ll have had 4 years of languages but no AP there. He is in the honors ring of courses, not the AP level. The top kids at his school who are applying to the ivies and other highly selective schools that take 1/3 or fewer of the applicants are taking the heavy duty AP courses. My son is not in that group. He’ll be looking at schools that take 40-50% of their applicants as his reach schools whereas those would be safeties for the AP kids. But then the AP kids also have the higher test scores and ability levels that have placed them into that track. </p>

<p>My second son took the most difficult courses available at a rigorous school. Despite a solid B average, he got into highly selective schools including an ivy. Got scholarship offers at a number of less selective schools. But he also had very high test scores. </p>

<p>You have to look at the whole picture when making these decisions. It made sense for my second son to take the courses he did,not because he had ivy plans but because that was his level of achievement. It would not have been wise to stick his younger brother in such courses because, he just was not slated for those courses, and honors classes were where his comfort level lay. He would have been hard pressed to do well in the AP courses.</p>

5

<p>From what I have heard in admissions talks at 20+ schools, schools look at GPA, and rigor of courses, not necessarily whether they are designated AP courses. For example the honors statistics course my son took in high school didn’t prepare him for an AP test, but it did make college statistics easy- that doesn’t make it any less rigorous than if they prepared for a test. One of my son’s roomies last year in the AU honors program came in with the maximum AP credits you could at AU - but his scholarship wasn’t higher than others with fewer AP credits - although he had sophomore standing when he entered and can graduate in 3 years if he wants.</p>

<p>Note that some of the most selective schools limit the number of AP courses that they give credit for - I think I remember hearing that at Duke.</p>

6

<p>Getting credit for APs is a whole other story. When it comes to attempting to gain admissions to the most selective schools, APs are valuable in that their presence on a transcript tells the college what level the kid is studying. It shows the kid is taking the highest track of courses available. Now that may not be very helpful if the high school has an abysmal record of kids doing well on the AP test. The track record of AP scores generally is in the school profile. And some schools don’t even have to report that their kids are taking AP courses because they are well enough known by the selective schools, that the kids get credit for taking a difficult curriculum just because they attend that school.
A couple of years ago, the head of admissions to a top 25 uni spoke at my son’s school. He said that his school did not really count how many APs, and taking 4 APs is plenty, if they are the right ones. They could not care less if the kids had AP Psych or some of the other non basic subjects. Calc B/c is downright revered, and a high grade in that can count for a lot. And he also said that Calc B/c is one subject for which they do cut a bit of a break. if the kid does not do so well in it. </p>

<p>Schools have crazy ways of giving AP credit. In many schools, it depends on your major which APs count. An AP in your major, may give you seniority to take more advanced courses but may not count towards degree requirements other than as a general course. Physics B, for instance, often will not garner college credits even with a 5 score, especially if the kid is a physics or engineering major. But they may let the english major count it towards his/her science requirement and give credit for it.</p>

7

<p>I think it all depends upon your kid. My son likes to live on the edge academically; he’s easily bored, and he would rather feel challenged than have perfect mastery. He started taking APs in his sophomore year and loved them. In his junior year he took five APs + honors Spanish 4, +, as his elective, 2nd-year Japanese (most people take something undemanding like graphic design). He enjoyed himself immensely, but had to stop varsity swimming because he didn’t have the time, and his grades dropped from close to straight As to a mix of As and Bs. He did get 5s on all the exams. This year, when he applied to colleges, his class rank had slipped so that he was no longer in the top 10%, which I think was most likely fatal to his applications at some tippy-top schools. He did get into an excellent university that he will be happy to attend, and he has tons of advanced placement credit, which gives him a lot of flexibility.</p>

<p>My daughter, a rising high school sophomore, is much more perfectionist and doesn’t like to feel overwhelmed. She also has serious, longstanding extracurricular commitments that she’s not willing to sacrifice. So when teachers started recommending that she take APs, I advised her that I thought she would be better staying on the honors track for now, and maybe taking only 1 or 2 APs in her junior year. The curriculum she is taking is still considered “very rigorous” by her high school counselors.</p>

8

<p>S1 took multiple AP’s including calc BC, physics, computer sci B (when they still offered it), chem etc. And was an ap scholar w/ distinction. Ended up at an Ivy and got no college credit for anything (yes, mostly 5’s). One important thing to note is to keep your lab book if you take a lab science b/c the school will most like likely want to see it before giving credit. Again, though he got a 5 on AP Chem he did not get a lab credit because they didn’t think his lab book was complete enough. Just saying, that the whole concept of getting credit really end up feeling like a sham to him and like the College Board sold him a bill of goods that really didn’t end up meAning much. Nothing against the rigor of the coursework, it was what he needed to be challenged with but the credits were a waste of time.</p>

9

<p>Do not go into this as “boycotting APs”. That’s just shooting your foot. It is what it is: one way colleges know the student is challenging himself/herself. The old adage was “have at least 5” to be considered for a top-20 college. Just don’t go overboard. That becomes a real negative. Here are some thoughts:</p>

<p>Taking APs: 1) shows rigor. Colleges love that. 2) For my kids, they also found top students in those classes, which meant they hung out with a good social/academic network of friends.</p>

<p>Not taking APs: 1) your child won’t experience those school electives, which could help them discover a new passion. One of my kids did not load up on APs because he enjoyed technology classes preferable. 2) The AP curriculum is rather rigid, which means the teacher has no time to get into depth or into side topics.</p>

<p>(PS: Newsweek’s “100 top school ranking” only bases the rankings on how many AP tests a school administered vs total number of students. Not other measures, i.e. cost per pupil or peer assessment. Using only one measurement only supports CollegeBoard’s standardized testing. Since those rankings are only based on one measurement only, the results are considered to be biased and invalid.)</p>

10

<p>Your student will want to be taking APs on par with the top 10% of students in their class, without sacrificing their GPA. They will be judged more against their own classmates than a student across the country. It is a balance to decide on the right number.</p>

11

<p>On the merits, a lot of AP courses are a mile wide and an inch deep because they have to teach to the test. I’d prefer narrower, deeper courses that focus on teaching kids how to think.</p>

<p>That said, getting into college is a competitive game. You don’t want to look like you are taking things too easy. So, a moderate proportion of AP courses (relative to your peers at the HS) probably helps. I don’t know if there is actually any need to take the AP exams (unless required by the HS or unless you want to place out of the course; I personally think most college courses cover things in more depth than HS, so I wouldn’t be eager to use AP Bio or Physics to place out of serious college courses).</p>

12

<p>In CA, the UCs will dismiss students who did not take a school’s hardest classes, so it’s not just an ivy league thing. Realize the Newsweek list does not include most of the Country’s top high schools-prep and top magnet schools-so top 100 really isn’t so top to many colleges.</p>

13

<p>I know plenty of kids who got into very competitive schools with few to no APs. Each one has a different story to tell (some were recruited athletes, others just very compelling.) If the APs are right for your child, have him/her take them. Colleges do want to see kids challenge themsleves, but life is filled with challenges.</p>

14

<p>lamere, you might also ask the GCs at your son’s school what admissions results are like for the students who take fewer AP courses. Better to hear from the horse’s mouth.</p>

<p>I’d take that blog post with a grain of salt. True, a school doesn’t need to offer AP classes in order to have a challenging curriculum. Certainly just because a class is labelled as “AP” doesn’t mean that it’s guaranteed to be equivalent to a college class. Yet I took AP classes that were in no way “a mile wide and just an inch deep”. Same for D1. I attended two of the institutions in the blogger’s list of “excellent” schools, and my AP classes offered at least as much academic depth as my college classes, if not more. The AP courses at your son’s school might well be of similar quality. No point in boycotting them in that case.</p>

<p>Slightly off-topic, but people mention that their children took non-AP calculus. How can calculus, a college-level class, be non-AP? Does it simply cover less material than Calc AB?</p>

15

<p>And covering less than Calc AB already seems pretty strange since Calc AB is a semester’s worth of Calculus stretched out over an entire year. That seems plenty slow enough to me.</p>

16

<p>I’ve noticed that “most selective” colleges have an image of the ideal student in mind, and that student is gung-ho for highly challenging academics. When that ideal student hears of a very demanding course, she/he says–I can’t wait! Hmm. In searching out clues among transcripts for said idealie, these adcoms seem wary of capable students who opt out of AP courses in schools that offer many. It’s a shame these highly selective schools don’t idealize the happy, well-balanced teen who, after hours of ECs and sports, wants to spend some time relaxing and watch a little tv to unwind, not to mention trying to get the occasional 8 hours of sleep (mine), but the top 30 or so don’t select for those qualities, it seems. ;)</p>

<p>If your student would be most happy attending a less selective college, the number of APs (since his HS offers many) may not be counted as a measure of his <em>drive</em>. However, you have a soph boy, and speaking as a mom of 2 boys, they do (surprisingly) mature and grow more capable of the demands of difficult classwork seemingly overnight. It may be helpful for some kids to find themselves nudged along by the system, prompted to take on more each year along with the most talented students in their school. It’s a challenging road, but on the other hand, it might be a shame to rebel against the machine on principal when taking a few APs could help the adcoms (as well as your son!) know his potential.</p>

17

<p>AP is a trademark. A course can be very vigorous and not be designated AP. Unless your high school is well known by colleges, AdComms won’t know it. AP exam scores help provide a standard with which AdComms can measure students from unknown high schools. (There are fraud AP out there - some schools offer “AP” courses for which the College Board offers no exam. They get cease and desist letters when they are discovered.)</p>

18

<p>As others have said…colleges look for “rigor” of course work in comparison to what is offerred at the students particular school. This is similair to weighted class rank. They want students who have taken a demanding course load becasue they are trying to predict how well that student will do at their college.</p>

19

<p>Some students are able to manage multiple AP’s successfully as well as EC’s , a social life and sleep. I know, because D did and was never particularly stressed out about it. Depends on the kid.</p>

20

<p>There does seem to be a competition among students to take many AP courses – look how rigorous my courseload is, Mr./Ms. AdCom. But, there are many ways to show rigor, and I’m relatively unimpressed by the demands of a number of the AP tests. Courses that teach to the test have to aim for breadth rather than depth and when there is a tradeoff (and there is), I’d rather have my kids learn to do a few things in depth rather than lots of things with less depth.</p>