Culture of drinking, drugs and sexual irresponsibility

Parents Forum
161

" agree with what you wrote, particularly that alcohol can reveal the “true self”."

In vino veritas!

Look the data is really really really really clear on this. People are more likely to do certain things while inebriated than when sober. How else to explain the existence of karaoke? Is the bad karaoke performance someone letting out their “true self” of bad singing? Or is it someone letting out something that they normally know enough to keep under wraps?

Judgment, decision-making, self-control, inhibition, ability to defend yourself all decline as BAC increases. The booze tends to suppress the operation of the frontal lobe/super ego. Which leaves you with more brain stem/id. Which is why getting buzzed at a party is fun. But fun can become dangerous as you move along the spectrum.

I always point out the Vandy football player case in this regard. Unlike the typical case, there was a lot of hard evidence and video about exactly what happened there.

The female victim completely unconscious due to excessive alcohol consumption. What’s the chance she gets victimized like that if she’d just had a couple of wine spritzers instead? Probably zero.

The main assailant testified he had up to 22 drinks (!!!) on the evening of the attack. No evidence was introduced that he had ever done something like the outrageous and horrendous things he was caught on tape doing. What’s the chance that he acts like that at a BAC of 0.08 instead of 0.40? Probably zero. If I had 22 drinks, god knows what I might be capable of.

The other main Vandy football player defendant was also massively hammered. So hammered that it seemed at the time like a good idea to encourage his teammate to have sex with the passed out female – who happened to be his own girlfriend. And also a good idea to take pictures and text about it. What’s the chance he does that while mostly sober? Probably zero.

Also, there were a bunch of bystanders who saw the unconscious girl. All massively drunk and did not intervene. Think they’d be more likely to help out if they were not hammered as well?

In the Stanford rape case, the female victim was unconscious with a BAC three times the legal limit. She didn’t wake up for THREE hours after the attack!!!

The attacker was at double the limit – nine beers plus whiskey on top of that. You think he decides it is a good idea to have sex with an unconscious female in the dirt behind a dumpster if he’d just had a couple of Miller Lite’s?

Booze is not an excuse. But it is a huge cause and risk factor. Come on people – it is so obvious.

162

We don’t have to guess. There are data on this. Even if you look just at the offender side, people committing violent crimes are far more likely to be intoxicated by alcohol than other drugs at the time of arrest.

https://www.ncadd.org/about-addiction/alcohol-drugs-and-crime

I don’t really care if people are kind or evil in their souls. I care about whether they hurt others. People who aren’t drunk behave better.

163

Think of this from the viewpoint of bystander intervention. Bystander intervention will be less successful if people approach it thinking that alcohol is not a problem and they only have to be on the look out for the predatory rapist. Bystander intervention works best when people are on the lookout for their friends ending up as either victim OR perpetrator. Bystander intervention works when people recognize that even their own friends could wind up doing something very bad that they will regret, and that as a good friend they need to intervene. And from the potential perpetrator’s viewpoint, I imagine he will be more likely to heed the friend who says (1) buddy, you’ve had too much and you’re being too aggressive, time to go home and sober up before you do something you’ll regret, vs. (2) I think you’re a potential rapist here to prey on vulnerable females. Also the likelihood is that few bystanders will feel comfortable saying #2 versus #1.

164

Agree, but my patience to do that with my friends is limited. My response to my friend repeatedly getting drunk to the point of not being in control isn’t going to be - hey, keep on doing that without any regard for consequences, I’ve got your back. The idea of being around drunk people is so unappealing in the first place and if that’s how they want to socialize, I want no part of it.

165

Corinthian.

Great post. Much more realistic, practical, effective and useful than the oft-stated “we just have to get the rapers not to rape!”

When it comes to drunk driving, we’ve gotten pretty good at intervening to take the keys away. So someone won’t do something while impaired that they very likely would not do while sober. We understand that a good driver while sober can become a road menace at a high enough BAC.

But our sensitivities about never blaming victims and always blaming perps gets in the way of common sense. Kids who would never be a sex assault victim or a perp at 0.08 BAC can absolutely become a victim or perp at a high enough BAC.

166

I don’t actually see what so much more realistic, practical, effective, and useful about “We just have to get people not to get drunk!” than “We just have to get rapists not to rape!”

Both of them would require social change, and social change isn’t easy.

167

“Why society doesn’t learn any lessons …”

I’ve lived in this culture for 50 years since HS; it hasn’t changed much. We also had too much alcohol and drugs and sex (but not yet guns, at least) in college. Human nature. We’ll be okay.

168

@palm715 I couldn’t agree with you more. We need to work on bystander intervention. It’s been so many stories of people just standing by and watching. Some even take out their phones to record. But no one intervenes to stop it. The links below are just the stories I remember right now. There are 100 more stories just like the ones in the links. People just standing by and watching people getting beat and raped. SMDH

http://abcnews.go.com/US/bobby-tillman-georgia-teenager-beaten-death-random-play/story?id=12132976

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/14/us/florida-panama-city-gang-rape-case/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivPmm9p1FTY

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/22/fight-in-delaware-high-school-bathroom-kills-16-year-old-girl.html

169

DFB – you could say the same thing about drunk driving. But it seems like we’ve made some progress on that one, no?

170

Bystander intervention isn’t really about changing society or even reforming individuals. It’s stepping into a specific situation at the moment when it can be redirected, whether it’s by grabbing the car keys or steering the drunk kid back to his or her dorm. It requires that we open our eyes to the possibility that people we think of as our friends and good people, can nevertheless do something really really bad.

171

Yes. I do.

I read a lot of the court documents.

Many decades ago, I worked with a young man at Bank of America. He told me what he liked to do for fun. He liked to go out with his buddies. Get drunk. Go to SF Giants baseball games. Drink more. Get into fights. Beat people up.
He told me this when he was sober. He wasn’t violent when he was sober. He was a very nice guy. But he knew he was going to get drunk and do things.

I worked with this other guy. He told me a story when he was sober. He went to a bar. There was a young woman’s birthday party. He surveyed the scene. He chose a very drunk girl. Took her with him. Her friends said to her call us tomorrow. (Not much help there). Took her to his hotel. Carried her up the stairs because she couldn’t walk up the stairs. Took her to his room. She blacked out. He had his way with her. In the morning, he called her a cab to take her home. She probably doesn’t have any memory of what happened. But… If she thought about it…
Nothing bad happened to him.

He was very proud of himself.

I think a lot of these guys are drunk during their acts but they know what they are going to do or what they did when sober.

They don’t get a pass from me because they drink or were drunk.

172

Bystander intervention has become part of first year orientation, I’m guessing it is increasing at all schools or may even be required now for Title IX?.

In arguing for the power of “policing ourselves” vs knowledge of legal consequences, one student wrote:

In theory great but still hard to tell students when it is right to step in and stop a friend.

IDK how long it took for the “take the keys” DUI campaign to have an effect.

http://amherststudent.amherst.edu/?q=article/2014/10/01/efficacy-bystander-intervention-training-can-we-move-beyond-party-foul

173

Well, yes—I mean, I didn’t say it’s impossible, just difficult.

But to say one approach is more—how did you put it? “realistic, practical, effective, and useful”—than the other, well, there’s nothing to back that up. They’re probably both all of those things, and perhaps even equally so. But the comparison you drew that elevated the one over the other? That seemed rather unwarranted.

174

“Agree, but my patience to do that with my friends is limited.”

Same here. I guess for people who like getting drunk, they can take turns. I didn’t want to take a turn babysitting, and I got some blowback for that when I was younger.

“I don’t actually see what so much more realistic, practical, effective, and useful about “We just have to get people not to get drunk!” than “We just have to get rapists not to rape!””

Human nature, or in other words, self-interest. There isn’t any type of violent crime, anywhere in the world, where a majority of perpetrators are promptly caught and punished. This crime is particularly hard to catch and prove. So it’s difficult to use self-interest to get rapists to make different choices, unless we’re willing to punish a huge number of innocent people in order to get more of the guilty. But if we’re fighting alcohol abuse, we can work with self-interest.

I certainly agree that social change is not easy. I just think one challenge is likely a lower-hanging fruit than the other. We need a lot more research to figure out what works in the real world. My opinions are just that, not empirical data.

175

@dstark It is very hard to change people’s mindsets. Sometimes I wonder does traditional dating even exist anymore or is it just hookups. I also wonder since women are very career focused maybe some of them are not interested in long term serious relationships and the emotions that go with it. They may be only looking for casual short term fun without the hassles of commitment a long term serious relationship requires when they are looking to pursue further education, take out loans, and settle in their career before thinking of settling down with marriage and family.

As a parent of a college aged daughter I have never understood how drinking to the point of blackout is fun.

I can understand enjoying a drink or a cocktail but having 8 or 9 drinks. I don’t see the sense in that as I myself don’t drink. Why does excessive drinking=fun? A friends daughter has been told by her doctor that she can’t have any alcohol for medical reasons yet in college she drinks till she passes out. I don’t understand that.

176

@raclut, I know it is very difficult to change people’s mindsets.

Traditional dating does still exist. My niece married the guy she dated in college.

I don’t understand the excessive drinking either…but a lot of people drink to excess.

177

Once more, with vigor. College students have the same number of sexual partners that they have had for the last 40+ years.

If THIS is hook-up culture, then we’ve had hook-up culture for a few generations (at least).

The vast, VAST majority of students do “traditional dating” (whatever the ---- that means). Most students are sleeping with SOs, not random people.

http://time.com/88092/hookup-culture-myth-study/

ETA: Oh yeah, and binge drinking has also been relatively steady since at least the 90s.

178

Sounds like they are acting a bit more like we think of men acting :slight_smile:

179

"If this victim hadn’t been drunk and blacked out this animal would have just chosen another victim. " I’m not convinced of that. If none of the women at the party had been falling down drunk, do you think this guy would have assaulted a woman who was able to resist and call for help? Possibly, but my guess is no. I don’t think it’s the case that there is some kind of quota of assaults these people are meeting. I think these are crimes of opportunity and that if there is less opportunity there will be less crime.

Actually other girls at the party have stated that this guy was very aggressive to them. So, yes, there is a strong likelihood that he would have chosen another girl.

180

"Sometimes I wonder does traditional dating even exist anymore or is it just hookups. "

My kids both participate in “traditional dating,” as do their friends.

“I also wonder since women are very career focused maybe some of them are not interested in long term serious relationships and the emotions that go with it. They may be only looking for casual short term fun without the hassles of commitment a long term serious relationship requires when they are looking to pursue further education, take out loans, and settle in their career before thinking of settling down with marriage and family.”

I don’t buy this. I don’t see women today as being one bit more career focused than we all were 30 years ago - which is to say, we were all very career focused.

"As a parent of a college aged daughter I have never understood how drinking to the point of blackout is fun.
I can understand enjoying a drink or a cocktail but having 8 or 9 drinks. I don’t see the sense in that as I myself don’t drink. Why does excessive drinking=fun? "

Beats me. I don’t get it at all. Tried it a few times in college and boy, was that ever pointless and stupid.
We need to shame this kind of behavior, the way we shamed smoking (and it went from - the cool thing to do - into the socially embarrassing, low-class, uncool thing to do). And the way that we’ve (largely) shamed drunk driving.