Curmudge, Carolyn, Edad, other parents - input please

Parents Forum
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<p>I originally put this on another thread, but it was "Off topic" to the original post, so I am posting it separately.</p>

<p>D got into all her colleges, we purposely tried for 12 as we were also trying to get merit aid (we don't qualify for need based aid according to the Princeton calculator. .so we didn't even try). D got into all 12, with merit aid of varying amounts for 8 -- the other 4 were "reach" schools and she did not get any aid for those (eg Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, UCLA, UC Berkeley).</p>

<p>D's top choices right now are UCLA (no aid) , Pepperdine ($22k/ year aid renewable for 4 years), Baylor (Full tuition scholarship renewable for 4 years), USC (half tuition). </p>

<p>USC is out as it would still cost us $27k/year. She likes the choices and diversity of UCLA, but also likes the chance to have small classes and foster deep relationships at Pepperdine. </p>

<p>The cost of Pepperdine and UCLA should be about even. Our cost will run about $19,000/ year. She is worried that UCLA may be too big. . . we visited Pepperdine this past weekend, and hubby and I are worried that Pepperdine might be too small and that she would get tired of the very small campus for 4 years and perhaps the "lack of things to do in Malibu". (LOL, at an info meeting we went to on Sunday for Pepperdine, an alumni said for fun on the weekend, Pepperdine students went to UCLA/ Westwood). At Pepperdine, the freshman class 750, total undergrad 3000, the campus is about 1 1/2 times bigger than her high school where her total high school enrollment is about 2100.</p>

<p>At Baylor, she would get full tuition, but the campus is in Waco and when we visited there, it is a little hard to get to, as it is about 2 hours drive from the major airports such as Houston or Dallas. The distance may make that harder for her to get home on a weekend to see her littler siblings' theatrical performances, dance performances, etc. She is our oldest, and is pretty close to her 3 younger siblings (now some of our other kids coming up the pike, wouldn't care at all about being able to come home to attend their younger siblings' performances)</p>

<p>I think D is the type of kid who would adjust anywhere. She likes deep relationships rather than lots of more superficial ones. Interests wise, she is conservative, a Christian, loves the fine arts (dance, theatre, flute) and would like to be able to still be involved in her interests as a non-major. She also is very interested in studying abroad, which all three --Baylor, Pepperdine, UCLA---would allow her to do. </p>

<p>In both colleges, she has been asked to joined the honors program (NMF, 3/464, 4.7 GPA weighted, 4.0 GPA unweighted). Her major at this point is math, although she is not sure what she wants to do with the degree. </p>

<p>We assume she will need to go to graduate school. Perhaps Baylor and Pepperdine would allow her to be a "bigger fish in a smaller pond" with more one-to-one relationships with professors, thus giving her a better chance at graduate schools?</p>

<p>I have read your posts, and have always appreciated your levelheaded responses. If D was leaning towards a set direction, we would go with that direction, but as she says " I like different aspects about all the colleges."</p>

<p>If you have any tips, or suggestions, I'd appreciate them. We need to be able to see at this situation from all angles, which I am hoping you will help provide. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Mom- since you answered my earlier call for help, I'm happy to reciprocate since we are on parallel paths. My wife, sister and niece are Baylor alums so I know it well living here in TX. It is no longer a small university with close to 11,000 undergrads, but it has also has grown in stature recently. It will give your daughter a solid education and if she does well, she can get to next level in most places...especially in TX. The downside is the town and distance. Based on what you've said about her, she'll fit in. My son didn't want to go to Baylor - much to my wife's chagrin. Without having a definite academic pursuit in mind, it's a good safety school option. My son's safety school-Wake Forest - isn't all that much different from a social/political climate...I'd even point out a positive that Baylor is substantially more diverse.</p>

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<p>Mom of Four, Your D is obviously very brainy kid and as such may be a little out of touch with her emotional respones to the campuses (I know this sounds like pop psychology) One technique that is actually supported by people who have studied this as well by posts last year at this time is as follows: Have your daughter spend an entire day imagining that she has chosen a particular college and then look for a somatic clue such as a head ache or vague feeling of unease. That would put that college lower on her list. After working through each of her acceptances this way she should produce a shorter list of what she prefers.
These are all good colleges, and this is a good problem to have.
Now returning to the objective criteria such as class size and individual attention I would prefer the "big fish in small pond solutions". Another thing to look at is that kids who attend college more than 60 miles from home tend to not go home as much and are happier with their choice as they are more integrated into the college scene. (I think TheDad had a post on this last year) I have had friends, relatives and colleagues at all three institutions, Pepperdine, UCLA and Baylor, and they all turned out well. I might vote for Baylor, if we were voting.</p>

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<p>$19K, $19K, and I'd guess about $8K R+B at Baylor?</p>

<p>Baylor. Hmmmm.</p>

<p>That's $44K less over 4 years ( Remember - apples to apples. Baylor's award increases with tuition, it's really closer to $50K difference at least) for a conservative Christian girl to save for grad school or spend on a full-year of study-abroad, lots of trips home, a nice gift for Curmudgeon, and extra music and dance EC's. </p>

<p>A campus of 11,000+ UG, plus law, grad, and seminary students will have a substantial amount of campus related activities. 90% of the kids will have a car, so rides are easy to find and the town, though not a city, has plenty of movie screens and restaurants (really good Mexican and plenty of chains). I'm assuming the lack of a good bar scene is not a real concern. :)</p>

<p>The only real problem I see is airport access. Austin and Dallas (DFW or Love) are the two you'd use . Not Houston . 2 hours is a minimum. 2 and 15-30 minutes is more like it. More if rush hour. American Eagle flies to DFW from Waco. It's just as fast to use Waco Streak shuttle service.</p>

<p>Within the parameters you describe, Baylor is a very good choice.</p>

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<p>Mom of Four: I am flattered you included me in the group with Cur and Carolyn, but I am not sure I can provide much input that would be useful. With 3 such diverse choices, I would think the final choice would be easier. That does not mean I can be helpful. I don't know much about Baylor and only saw the Pepperdine campus once many years ago. More importantly I do not know your D. I can imagine the choices my D would make. Sorry Cur, but no way would she ever consider going to the middle of nowhere in Texas. She is just too much of a city girl and would feel isolated. I would imagine a southern California girl might have some difficulty with that choice also. If not, I would consider an extended visit if she has not already done so. I am not sure how my D would choose between UCLA and Pepperdine. I think it would be Pepperdine, based solely on size. My D preferred a mid-sized campus where there were plenty of opportunities but more of a sense of community.</p>

<p>I usually like to take the logical approach to making decisions, but with these great choices I would go by the heart. If the decision is not obvious, again I recommend visits and maybe mardad's approach at visualization. I would try to leave finances out of the decision. If your D ends up unhappy, the savings will not be worth it. It she makes a choice she is happy with and it costs more, I believe it is reasonable to hold her responsible for at least some of the extra costs. Workstudy, summer jobs and students loans will go a long way in closing the gap. It would be much better to have a happy kid who has to work earning money than a kid who is miserable.</p>

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<p>One of the things that struck me in your post is that I get a very clear sense how you and your husband felt about these schools, but little clarification on your daughter's personal reaction or preferences, other than the fact that these are generically her top choices.</p>

<p>For example, you speak very eloquently about your fears that Peperdine is too small for your D, but do not mention how she felt about the campus and the fact that it is relatively "small". Perhaps you've had a discussion about this, but haven't mentioned it in your post? Some students have strong feelings about size of campus while others do not. This may partially depend on what she's searching for in terms of programs, extracurriculars, outside environment, etc.</p>

<p>I guess my gut feeling is that, assuming all these choices are financially feasible, it would be good to have more of a sense of how your daughter feels about these choices and the reservations you've expressed before anyone can really offer advice and help. Perhaps she has no preferences all among among the schools you've mentioned, but this would be unusual. What is her feeling about the campuses in question?</p>

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<p>As the oldest, she may be trying to please Mom and Dad instead of herself. I like the visualization technique - as long as you make it clear that you will support whatever choice she makes. She may need to be told that this is <em>her</em> life now.</p>

<p>BTW, I doubt she will really want to come home often to watch school plays and such once she gets integrated into college life. That should not be a concern. The travel itself, however, between semesters, is a factor for many families.</p>

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<p>I have had people tell me that it is very difficult to make a small school bigger, but easy to make a big school smaller. Meaning , if you attend a large university you can become involved in groups ( a sorority/fraternity or sport or club) that give you a sense of belonging and oneness while still having many options in classes and activities. Just a thought - came from a friend whose first D went to small school and second to very large U- she recommended larger U as her first D grew restless.
Of course all of her options look great so it is a tough choice !</p>

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<p>I have to put in a vote for Baylor. Back in the dark ages, some very good friends of mine (they were sisters) all went to Baylor and had a tremendous experience. Sounds like it's a very good fit for her on the religious/political front. Unless she's very outgoing and very assertive, I'd have concerns about her developing strong faculty relationships for grad school at UCLA (but that may not be true if she's in a small department at UCLA). Travel-wise, yes it can be a pain, but Dallas is a major hub and should have good schedules. For the major holidays and breaks Baylor probably has some sort of ride-share or shuttle bus arrangement to the airport. But just on a random weekend to fly back for a performance could be a pain. </p>

<p>Not to delve too deeply, but Baylor and Pepperdine, though both affiliated with churches generally lumped together as "conservative" are very different. If your daughter is Church of Christ, she may feel a little bit in the minority due to the overwhelming Baptist flavor of Baylor and Waco. I don't want to overstate it -- my friends were all Lutherans and had a great time (well, two converted when they got married) On the flip side, I don't think that's as true at Pepperdine -- while it is affiliated with the Church of Christ, it is not overwhelming attended by Church of Christ kids. Conservative Christian yet, but not an overwhelming majority from one particular church. I hope that this rambling made sense, and that it was helpful.</p>

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<p>Just a thought on the visualization technique. This only works if you are really familiar with what you are trying to visualize. You need to be able to distinguish fact from fiction. It is really easy to paint that picture in your mind that does not match reality. Kids do this all the time and can be really disappointed when their dreams don't match reality.</p>

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<p>I have a d who will be a senior at Baylor next year. She's had a fantastic experience as part of the honors program and a study abroad experience in Oxford. She has very close relationships with professors, which has helped her get prestigious internships. She definitely has liked the Christian flavor of the campus.</p>

<p>As for Waco, for her it's neither a plus or a minus. She's not into nightlife off campus, anyway. She's so busy with everything she is involved with that I don't think it wouldn't matter much where the school was located. Occasionally she'll drive the hour up to Dallas for the theatre. And we're not Baptist -- which a lot of the local churches in Waco are Baptist, these are still college kids and there are plenty of different views.</p>

<p>One of the biggest decisions in choosing Baylor is the fact that such a large percentage of kids move off campus after freshman year. Our d was a Community Leader her sophomore and junior years (us old folks use the term RA), so her senior year will be her first year out of the dorms, and she is ready to have a little more freedom. While the Baylor administration SAYS they are trying to encourage upperclassmen to stay on campus, I think until they are willing to relax the visiting hours (this year it is 1-8 p.m. weekdays, and I think 10 on weekends) most of the older kids are going to choose to move off so they can set their own hours.</p>

<p>Parking at the Waco airport, I hear, is free, and if the only tab you have over 4 years is room and board, you'd have the disposable $$ to spend on a few plane tickets and still have some $$ to send your younger kids to college or kick in $$ for grad school. By the way, we purposely didn't send a car with her the first semester, which forced her to dig into the resources she had right in front of her. That was a good call. So many of the kids bring cars, that it certainly isn't essential, at least initially. Now that she has off campus internships and service opportunities, it's a different story.</p>

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<p>As others have mentioned, your post talked about YOUR opinions and such.</p>

<p>What are your D's opinions.</p>

<p>Frankly, I cannot imagine her returning for younger siblings school plays etc. She will be involved with multiple activities at her college and her classmates and such.</p>

<p>Your D is going to college, and what she wants and needs should be the focus at this time, I sense the need to step back and allow your D to step forward and make the decision(s) that suit her.</p>

<p>I wish you and your D good luck.</p>

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<p>mom of four,</p>

<p>is there one of these schools that your d considers her "dream' school and where she really sees herself as a student? did she have a chance to sit in on any actual classes in her visits? did she meet any of her future professors or sit in on any classes to see how the professors are in the classroom?</p>

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<p>Thank you for the replies. </p>

<p>After talking to D, she is leaning towards Pepperdine or Baylor, but hasn't gone to an info session at UCLA yet (that's April 18th), so UCLA is still on her top choice list ( with UCSD a distant fourth).</p>

<p>When we ask for her specific thoughts on the schools, she really hasn't given any, other to say, that she likes aspects of all 3. Maybe she will have to mull them over in her head and let the choices set for awhile ( I will suggest the visualization technique, Mardad). </p>

<p>I think she doesn't have time to make a decision what with tests, having rehearsals for her dance team performance at school all day --6 shows -- scheduled for April 19 (she comes back from vacation Mon April 17, we visit UCLA April 18) and lastly, doing rehearsals as a lead dancer for the musical "Beauty and the Beast" that she and D2 will be performing in June at Biola, a christian university nearby. </p>

<p>We have spring break starting Saturday, so maybe that will give her some time to think things over. LOL, the whole family is taking off on Sat on a east coast trip originally designed to visit Duke, UNC chapel Hill and TCNJ--which now are off D's list, but we will go and see them anyway since the plane tickets are bought. . .and of course, we will visit Wash DC and NYC too(we had to fit a Broadway play in for my theatrical lovng kids, so we are seeing "Beauty and the Beast" from the nose bleed section).</p>

<p>D does want to be able to come home to watch siblings in their plays or major performances -- she is the one who has brought that up, not us. I think wanting to come back a couple times to see her sibling' performances may only hold true for this first "transition" year at college, and is probably indicative of her valuing "relationships" and having the rest of the kids still at home (eg for our younger kids, that won't be an issue since no sibling will still be at home). </p>

<p>She wants to stay involved in her sibling's lives and see their major performances because the fine arts are what our kids do (all 4 kids play instruments, dance, perform in plays, etc). For example, we have d's "Beauty and the Beast" peformances in June and then, S has his repertory theatre company production of "Peter Pan" performances in July --for years, our summer vacations has to be in August because that is when summer school and various summer theatre productions are over .</p>

<p>Somewhat, cost is a factor, D knows that she wil be responsible for about $3k/year if she goes to UCLA, UCSD, Pepperdine -- she won't be responsible for the costs at Baylor except for personal stuff since tuition at Baylor is paid for.</p>

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<p>I have had a fairly intimate set of experiences with the theater facilities at Pepperdine. They are gorgeous, better equipped than many "pro" venues, and for the indigenous (as opposed to outside-produced) productions, they do a good job promoting the productions as well. The setting is drop dead gorgeous.</p>

<p>The down sides of Pepperdine from <em>my</em> point of view is that the administration is extremely paternalistic, though I think you will find this at many/most explicitly Christian colleges. It would give me the hives, either as student or parent. [A lot of parents like of PU students seem to like the "sheltered" environment.] Imo, it's also the negative mirror image of, say, Wesleyan and there's not a lot of diversity outside of that image.</p>

<p>UCLA is pretty cosmopolitan in all senses of the word. However, housing is not guaranteed for four years, so this is something you should look at. (This isn't a problem...everyone deals...but it means it's not a one-stop shopping experience.) Also, while I generally discount notions about prestige, and while Baylor may ring bells in Texas, the UCLA degree is a "brand name" that will carry weight in far more places than Pepperdine. Pepperdine certainly doesn't have a reputation for being terribly demanding in academics whereas UCLA will ambush the unwary student. Disclaimer: I'm UCLA-by-marriage and TheMom has worked at UCLA for more than a quarter century.</p>

<p>A final caveat: both you and your daughter may find that once she's at college, the dictates of her own schedule will loosen some of the bonds of involvement in re attending sib's productions, etc.</p>

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<p>Mom of four, I don't know if your visits included an overnight stay, but I would say that that made the biggest impact on my son in terms of deciding which college he fit into best. The culture of the university, the 'smallness' vs. 'bigness', the location (city / country / north / south), the relative commitment of the students to their studies really came through to him. Each time, we found a student in his major that he could stay with. We were real clear that this wasn't intended to be a 'party night' and had great success. Just something that worked for us.</p>

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<p>Sorry if someone already said this, but those responses were so long. </p>

<p>There are several flights every day from Waco to Dallas that are about 30 minutes in the air. My sister uses this frequently when traveling. The drive time between the 2 is relatively short, but just getting out of DFW by car can be a real nightmare.</p>

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<p>We visited UCLA when we looked at west coast schools.....got to say I REALLY liked it....and the kids we met were really happy there... I think Pepperdine is small and Baylor is remote, hot .....<br>
why is Berkeley off her list? I thought you mentioned it, and mentioned an interest in math? my niece is at Berkeley and is loving it.</p>

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<p>Although I usually promote smaller colleges for most students, unless your daughter has an interest in a major department which is not strong at UCLA, it's hard to see that either of the private options are better. Obviously, she should go to the school where she feels most comfortable, but the quality of education at UCLA has got to be very good, possibly better than what she'd get at either Baylor or Pepperdine. It is certainly possible, as someone else mentioned, to create a smaller community within a larger school, and I'm sure there would be faith based organizations for her. Just my thoughts...</p>

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<p>I personally would not worry about Pepperdine being too small or not the equivalent of UCLA academically. Pepperdine's academics are terrific, and the small class sizes and individual attention there more than make up for any perceived gap between it and UCLA.</p>

<p>I would focus carefully on the difference in mission and campus culture between the two schools. The fact that your daughter has applied to so many Christian Universities hints to me that she is looking for more than just academics. </p>

<p>So, I'd worry less about size, prestige and academic differences in this case, and more about fit. How important is that Christian mission to her? Yes, there are certainly opportunities to find like-minded people and supportive activities at UCLA, but that is not the same as attending a school whose mission is Christian-centric. Only your daughter and you can decide how much that is worth, and whether it is worth the price difference. </p>

<p>IF your daughter and your family feel strongly that attending a school with a strong Christian mission is important, I can think of very few schools in the US that would be a better choice than Pepperdine. (Although keep in mind there are plenty of kids at Pepperdine who are not quite as religious as one would think).</p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter as she weighs the pro's and con's. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk privately.</p>