Handling spousal differences--the school decision

Parent Cafe
1

<p>It makes me very uncomfortable to post about family differences but I feel I need some advice as I’m out of ideas. Here is the background:</p>

<p>My D has been lucky enough to be accepted at 7 of the 10 colleges she applied to. After visiting them and asking a lot of questions and doing a lot of research she feels Penn State theatre department is the right one. It offers a BFA in tech design and she will be learning exactly what she wants with all the hands-on theatre production experience she can handle. Also of all the BFAs it has the highest proportion of GE requirements, so she will have excellent, well-rounded academic exposure as well. She also is able to “cross-pollinate” her program with engineering courses, and design courses from outside the theater program that have a bearing on her tech specialty. Her professors also work outside the school and have excellent credentials and contacts. Their theatre program is well-known and very competitive. All their graduates leave with a job in hand. She is quite willing to accept the freezing winters and the rural location as a trade-off. She also feels it will be good for her to experience a different part of the country and be independent of us.</p>

<p>She has also been accepted to UCLA School of Theatre which is apparently one of the hardest programs in the nation to get into. This is a BA program, where there is no differentiation until sophomore year—all the kids take the same classes together up to that point. Only then do they actually go into a theater and focus on their specialty. They offer some tech/design focus, consisting of about 3 classes in the actual specialty D wants. But mainly it’s very broad and academic based. My D is adamant that she will not even consider this school as an option. She feels it’s too “cookie cutter”, and she cannot stand the thought of not working in a theater for that long a time. She basically applied only because it was a “local school”, had a theater department, and at the time she had not made up her mind between a BFA and a BA. We never EVER dreamed she would get in.</p>

<p>The issue is that my husband is (privately, only to me for now) insisting that she attend UCLA. He cannot understand why she would turn it down for “a second-class school” like PSU. He feels UCLA beats Penn as far as name recognition factor, industry connections, weather, student diversity, and especially—cost. We would be paying OOS tuition at PSU about $30k per year vs UCLA at about $18K per year (with housing). He is also a super-protective father who feels he would have more control over her as L.A. is our home. I know he cannot stomach the idea of her going away to college, and that is probably one of his main issues. The other is, I know, the bragging rights he’ll have to say his daughter attends UCLA (which in L.A, is like Harvard). But what he is “banging the shoe on the table” about is the cost factor. When we first started the college discussion last year we told her and to family and friends that cost will be a significant factor. Not the “only” factor, just a significant factor. Now he is saying I have to back him up and insist that because UCLA is cheaper that she must go there. He has no concept, or really doesn’t care that this is not the right program for her. He insists that all that matters is “the piece of paper” at the end, and the diploma with UCLA on it will beat the one that says PSU to any prospective theater job--end of subject.</p>

<p>D will never in a million years be convinced to go to UCLA. It’s not even “just OK” in her eyes—it’s “out of the question”. In fact I’m sure she was the only student in history to cry at seeing the acceptance letter, because at that point she knew she would be pressured to go there and that it was the absolute wrong program for her. I just don't feel I can force her to go there. My husband has no problem with the idea—“she’ll get over it”. I have a feeling this will be a major issue in our marriage if she insists on going to PSU. I know we can handle the cost of PSU with loans, and she is willing to work to help out. She even has the possibility of a small scholarship there. I really hate being in the middle, but that’s exactly where I am.</p>

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<p>I strongly suggest that you and your husband and daughter get some family counseling ASAP with a therapist familiar with issues regarding teen's leaving the nest.</p>

<p>Without the counseling, I think that it will be difficult for your family to resolve the dilemma without possibly causing either huge resentment on your daughter's part or a major, irrevokable rift in your family.</p>

<p>Perhaps your D's GC can refer you to a good therapist for these issues. I am sure that the GC has seen other families who have struggled with these problems.</p>

<p>If your husband refuses to go, you and your D need to go anyway.</p>

3

<p>I don't want to offer advice on family situations. However, just looking at it purely from a college choice standpoint, I believe that Dad has a very reasonable position. </p>

<p>I would not pay $12,000 more per year to go to Penn State over UCLA. At the same price, I'm not sure I would select Penn State over UCLA. UCLA is one of the best public universities in the country and it is difficult to turn that down with in-state tuition, especially when they have a strong, prestigious program in your daughter's interest.</p>

<p>I think there may be some romanticism about Penn State. Don't get me wrong, it's a good school, but it's not ALL THAT. Most kids from the East Coast would choose UCLA over Penn State in a heartbeat at the same price.</p>

<p>BTW, what is there to stop your daughter from volunteering in a theater while at UCLA? For $12,000 a year, you can buy her a nice car and all the gas she could possibly burn driving to any theater in SoCal, and that's if she can't find theater productions at UCLA itself. There are a lot more theater oriented activities in LA than there are in State College, PA.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, you guys should have been having this discussion a year ago.</p>

4

<p>Your D is an adult--whether you want to accept that or not. The decision is ultimately hers to make, after she has given due deference to her parents' input. As an adult she is free to make mistakes, too. However, it may not be a mistake in the way your D is looking at the issue. If she is "avoiding" UCLA for some emotional reason, not truly associated with the college, you may want to delve into that to prevent further problems later. If she has decided on Penn State for a legitimate interest/career reason, then force H to "listen" to her reasoning-not necessarily understand it, but to give your D the adult trust and respect she is entitled to receive from him. Give her that valuable lesson and she will begin to expect others to extend it to her, as well.
It's a new cross-road for everyone. There are no rules to handle it. Common sense, love and respect will do the trick.</p>

5

<p>Or, better yet. Tell her, you are an adult, you make your own decisions. We'll contribute $18,000 per year to the college of your choice. </p>

<p>See if SHE thinks Penn State is $12,000 a year better when she has to come up with $48,000 in jobs and student loans. My guess is that the conversation would become much more reality-based.</p>

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<p>huh, therapist/family counseling to decide on which college to go to? I think that may be jumping the gun, unless you absolutely can't discuss anything.</p>

<p>TaraMom, have the 3 of you had discussion together on the topic? I also think it is ok for the parents to have differing opinions. Perhaps the way to start is for the 3 of you to agree on the ground rules - who is the decision maker(s)? what are the key factors? acknowlege there is an emotional aspect to the issue. acknowledge that having a choice is a good thing (although may not be easy)</p>

<p>Is it down to UCLA vs Penn State or are any of the other 5 schools in contention? Has she visited both schools? Who else can she speak to that might have good info on the programs (current students, profs, gc)?</p>

<p>good luck.</p>

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<p>Wow- this is a tough one. You (and your daughter) probably know from years of experience what will work and what will not work within the family dynamics. Because your daughter is almost ready to be on her own, it would be great if she used her own skills and determination to deal with dad and/or to make some choices for herself and thus you Mom would not have to be in the middle. There is a fairly big difference in tuition and it sounds like your husband is thinking of many practical things and not much about feelings when it comes to college decisions. I don't have any easy solutions other than these few comments. Sounds like Show time in your house.</p>

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<p>Definitely tough. It seems the most important thing is to get to the root causes of the two conflicting parties' feelings. Why really does your D want so badly to go to Penn State? UCLA is one of the best universities in the country. Teens often think they know what they want to do and then change their minds. She could almost certainly get sufficient time "in theater" there. So is it something else? She feels the lifestyle she wants to lead will be better led in a v. large school? She wants to get away? That would be OK - the real driving factors just need to be uncovered.</p>

<p>The same holds true for your H. Is it really the $$$? How much hardship do you incur for the extra $$$? Is it the status? Or is it that he wants to keep her near? Or is it that he can't give up the idea that he is the boss of her?</p>

<p>I am familiar with this kind of dynamic in business situations - clearly not as near and dear as at home. These are the kinds of fights where people seize on the result because they are uncomfortable acknowledging their true agenda. These fights are never, ever productive. Someone wins, and someone loses. You only have a hope of win-win if each side has an understanding of the real thinking, the real benefits and constraints on the other side.</p>

<p>And it's your D and H, so I can only believe that at base everyone wants win-win, even if they don't know it.</p>

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<p>$48000. buys a lot of extra experiences. What about UCLA for undergrad, then somewhere else (Penn state?) for Grad school? Would she be able to get grad assistantship or something at Penn while doing an MFA if she helps out in the theater program? Even if the answer is no, the money saved on UCLA would pay for much grad school!</p>

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<p>InterestedDad, in all due respect, the general public is not aware of the selectivity factor of the program that TaraMom's D got into at Penn State. I know acquaintances upon hearing my D got into Penn State might say, big deal, of course she would get in there. However, not only in the case of Penn State but in the case of almost all my daughter's colleges, the selectivity was the BFA program which accepts 5%, which is nothing like getting into Penn State itself. Those odds are worse than the Ivy League. Those in the theater world, however, are very aware of the selectivity or "prestige" if you will, of these BFA programs. So, while I appreciate on a "normal" college discussion forum the notion that UCLA might "trump" Penn State, believe me, a BFA degree from the program that TaraMom's D got into might trump a more generalized BA program at UCLA (not as familiar with the specifics of that one but it is not going to be like a professional degree in theater tech/design as the BFA program is). So, I, for one, totally get what TaraMom's D is feeling. I concur with you that maybe she should not have applied to UCLA in the first place but maybe it was a backup, so to speak, because the odds of being admitted to a BFA degree program are so slim that some do apply to BA programs as an alternative, though my child did not choose to do so (some might say we were nuts given the odds of admission at 8 BFA programs). </p>

<p>Now, I can't say what this family SHOULD do. I know in my own situation, we let our kids choose wherever they wish to go to college and try not to influence that decision whatsoever. We let them pick which one was right for them. Admittedly, it involves great debt and that is not a choice everyone were to make. But money aside, I hear this dad wanting UCLA for other reasons. Frankly, I think THAT part of the decision is for this young woman to make. Her happiness as to which program meets her interests should be paramount. The financial end of this, I CAN see as an issue. However, the time to discuss whether a college can be an option financially should happen before you let the kid apply cause then you are setting them up if you won't let them go (I really think they were prepared to pay for it until this other option came along). As others have said, perhaps the child can take out loans to make the difference up. I truly think, however, there is more to this than the financial part. </p>

<p>I don't have many suggestions, unfortunately. I think Northstarmom's idea of having a third party sit in on this discussion is a fine option. I think that the daughter should be able to come to the parents and have a civil discussion and articulate her strong reasons why Penn State's program is what she is looking for. The academic reputation of the school is not going to matter as much in her field as the professional degree and training. I realize we are programed to feel that X college trumps Y college in reputation in the greater world but in this case, the BFA in this field might trump the better academic institution. And even IF we were talking PURELY academics and no BFA, I think kids should pick the best fit for them and clearly this child has strong reasons why one school fits what she is looking for and the other is an entirely different program. We are not talking liberal arts here. As well, I find too many folks too tied to "ratings". I know one of my kids was going to opt for Tufts and Smith OVER Penn and when I shared that last year amongst her acceptances at these schools, students on here could not imagine a kid picking those schools over an Ivy acceptance but those schools better fit what my child was looking for. And THAT was simply liberal arts. TaraMom's D is talking two very different types of academic programs and one is specialized and one is not and she is looking for that specialty. We were very impressed with Penn State's BFA degree program and my child was happy to go there and thrilled with the acceptance to it. I know the general public would not realize how high a achievement it is to get into Penn State's BFA because they only hear "Penn State". It does not matter to me because those in the theater world KNOW. And TaraMom, I know what you are talking about. I hope you can resolve this. I know I would go with what my child's college desires were as that is all that matters to me but you have to find a way to work this out and if you need a calm third party to help this discussion along, so be it. I am sorry it is turning into a dilemma when your daughter has been blessed with these fine acceptances. I hope you all work it out but I agree with others that ultimately your daughter is an adult and she needs to take the lead with her life. Ideally, she should have her parents' blessing. </p>

<p>Good luck, I am sorry for this bump in her road. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>TaraMom - Wow. I'm reminded of Vito's lament in The Godfather "How did things ever get so far?" Let's see if I have the picture. Daughter applied to UCLA even though she'd rather drink poison. Father let daughter apply to Penn State even though he would never agree to send her there. Daughter applied to no mutually acceptable programs, and family did not insist that she do so. Yikes. Sitcom material for sure.</p>

<p>Mom, it's your daughter. Would she agree to spending a gap year working with a theatre troupe? Not only would she get the hands on experience she desires, but the intervening year might provide enough time for your family to find a college you all can agree to.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Or is it that he wants to keep her near?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Even that has two components. There's the emotional side of that. But, there are also very pragmatic cost/logistic factors involved. For example, it will take the better part of a day to travel from State College to LA, especially if it involves connections, and it is difficult to get bargain fares at peak holiday travel times. Realistically, most west coast kids spend short holidays like Thanksgiving at school. Most west coast parents don't go to Parents Weekend. I think these logistics are something that has to be talked about in real world terms. </p>

<p>And, the drop-off/pick-up cycle every fall and spring is difficult since driving is pretty much out of the question. So, I don't think that, all things being equal, a limit of "somewhere within a full day's driving distance" is totally unreasonable. I did the the 1000 mile two day drive back and forth to college many times and it was a royal pain in the arse.</p>

<p>We sat down with my daughter as she looked at each college and looked at, "OK, what is it really going to take to get you and your stuff from Point A to Point B". So some places (like Atlanta), were actually easier than some closer places (like Virginia), simply because of distance to the airport, direct flights, availability of discount fares, etc.</p>

<p>The problem is that the "sales job" in both directions, needs to be an on-going process so that everybody gets to inch towards some happy place of general concensus. In this case, ol' Dad should have been "selling" UCLA for the past year and a half. Probably the least emotionally charged approach for him to take right now is to not sell UCLA, but to simply say, "I've looked at it and we can't afford $30k a year." That is pretty cut and dried, and honest for most families!</p>

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<p>SoozieVT:</p>

<p>Thanks for the background on PennState BFA. But, it sounds like UCLA's Theater Program isn't exactly chopped liver. It would certainly be reasonable to expect that a Theater Program this is "one of the hardest in the country to get into" located in Brentwood could be pretty well connected in the industry as well, although those connections may lean a bit more towards the movie/TV industry than the Broadway and stage industry.</p>

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<p>What a dilemma! UCLA is BIG BIG BIG in CA. And to get into the theatre dept., WOW! But as Soozie's post points out, it is huge to be accepted to Penn State's program as well. </p>

<p>I understand the emotions involved. My H was saying in the fall (2003) that of course we would do whatever it takes if my son got into Chicago, the education he would get there was worth it. And then we both fell in love with Grinnell, and felt he could get a great education there, comparable to Chicago, maybe better in some ways even, for him, for a discount. All was fine until S got off the waitlist for Chicago. My H was convinced Grinnell was better for him in several ways, including financially, and so was I, but I backed up my S's decision to go where he wanted, even pointing out the Grinnell letter, which stated the importance of letting the child decide. (I love that school). H was not happy that I didn't back him up 100% (but, its not the first time that has happened, and not the last, I'm sure!). And S was willing and wanting to do whatever it took, loan-wise to make Chicago happen. Turned out Chicago gave us a little bit of aid, which helped some. But things were tense there for about a month. And the Chicago rep would call every once in awhile, asking if we'd made the decision yet-- always very polite and not pushy. H insisted on waiting until all the financial stuff was cleared up. It took awhile. OY. memories. Is S better off at Chicago? I don't know, but he thinks he is. It seemed important to me that he should be allowed to choose where to go. I HOPE that he made the right decision. H seems fine with it now. But H is talking up Grinnell for D.</p>

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<p>Ultimately, in the end, your D is the one who will have to live at the school she choses and attend classes. She will be the one who will have to go to classes, make friends and live there 24/7. My friends were in the same position when their son chose a school that they were'e so sure about and that was my advice to them. They let go, let him attend his dream school and not only is he loving it, but they are totally into it as well. I can't advise a family, but we did the same thing with our son, and he has been very happy also. My father told me that I could attend any school I wanted as long as it was in state and a public U. I think I would have done much better at a smaller private and been happier. But then my parents were in the habit of chosing what was best for me (the only child), including what instrument I would play in band. It always made me feel the grass was greener on the other side because I was never really involved in the decisions.</p>

<p>I agree with Northstarmom, get counceling if you can't work it out. I ended up with a rebellious streak a mile wide, and I don't think you want that to happen.</p>

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<p>Being from LA, I can understand how difficult this must be for the dad, as UCLA,s theater rep is as good as it gets. Being a mom of a daughter, I also can't imagine not moving mountains to let my kid go wherever she feels is the best place for her growth.
We have good friends who did what interesteddad suggested when they found their son had been denied a spot in the UCLA theater program but acepted into USC's, as well as some other UCs . The parents felt they could only afford the UC tuition. Because the son felt being in LA was important to him and his career, he took out loans himself to make up the difference between SC and UC tuition and plans to work summers and some during the year. I'm sure he will have loans to pay off after he graduates, but he is willing to make that sacrifice for what he sees as the best educational experience he was offered. </p>

<p>What made this easier for him, perhaps, is that he knew and accepted the fact that his parents really would not/could not pay the full price of the private school tuition. No hidden agendas, there. Perhaps, in the case of the ops daughter, if money truly is the issue, she will understand and find other ways to reach her Penn State goal. If I were her mother, knowing how my husband feels, I would help her start thinking in these terms. What other sources of income can she generate over the next four years? How much debt could she reasonably handle after graduation?</p>

<p>Also, when the dad realizes that his daugher is willing to work and take on debt of her own to have the education she wants, his heart will probably soften considerably. That may be the kind of shift in the situation that could turn things around.</p>

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<p>ASAP, I love that advice. As I mentioned earlier, first the daughter could make a rational statement as to why she wants Penn State over UCLA. She can given her reasons and advocate for them. She can ask Dad what his objections are. If the cost is one of his main ones, she can come back with a brainstorm of how she might work that part out. This would show that she was willing to take on some burden to have her school desires met. So, let's say she has that factor taken care of in a reasonable fashion. The other objections like prestige or location, I think she should be able to make a case for why she can understand a parent having particular wishes in this area, she is an adult and is the one who has to live with these factors in her education. Going against her educational desires could build resentment. The parents should have a say in cost but these other parts are what SHE has to live with though she should listen to their concerns. If location and prestige were a factor, perhaps the time to object was in the application process. She also might want to educate dad about the differences between a BFA program and a BA program. Dad feels strongly that the issue is what the diploma says when getting a job. But there is more to an education than that. The program itself has to fuel the child's interests and aspirations as to what she wishes to learn. The diploma is not everything. The actual education IS. UCLA is an amazing place but just may not offer the program she is looking for. That factor cannot be ignored and might be part of the discussion. But I like the focus on dealing with his concern about the money first, unless he truly objects to her in person about the other aspects. I'd let the daughter advocate for herself to Dad on this, so it is not like "taking sides" with someone in the middle. </p>

<p>While this is not the same issue....I recall a little over a year ago when our then 15 year old came to us and wanted to have a "conference" and articulate her reasons for wanting to graduate early (which was never the plan as she was already in one grade above her age). Now, I was never one to want to do this and in fact, we did not have her skip a grade when suggested at other junctures in her schooling given that she was already over a year younger than her current grade due to an early admission into grade school. I never wanted her to graduate at sixteen. I knew my husband would say yes immediately. I certainly did not want to be in the middle. I also am one to support my kids' desires and I must admit she made a very good case for herself in every area. While it was not my wish for her to do this, I could see her end of it but mostly wanted to support her, plus knowing my husband was gonna, and I knew I would never hear the end of it if I put my foot down and said no. So, here we are a year later, with a very positive admissions outcome and I am used to the idea. She was never a "normal" kid and so this is just another thing to get used to. She is driven and knows what she wants and my job is to support her when it is reasonable to do so, even if it is not what I would have chosen. Frankly, she likely did the right thing for her. So, sometimes you need to let kids do what they need or want, even if it is not what you might have chosen (plus part of my reason is surely that I was not anxious to have her leave home a year earlier than I had planned). So, I hope the Dad in this case can listen to his daughter who I hope can have a calm "conference" and articulate her reasons and come up with solutions for the objection. Does Dad really want her to go to a school where she feels so adamantly that she does not wish to attend? I am sure he wants to see her happy but does not yet realize her end of this picture. She needs to advocate in a mature way and come up with solutions. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

18

<p>After posting this I felt horrified at myself, like what on earth was I smoking, but, the horse is out of the barn and I guess I can deal with it. I have several comments and things to add that may answer some of the questions but I have a pressing schedule today and will have to reply later. I really didn't intend to debate the merits of the schools--if I had been thinking straight, I should have simply asked--what should a family do when they can't agree? NSM's advice is an obvious answer I should have thought of myself, and saved myself from posting the family mishegas. However since I opened the door it is still helpful to hear all of the rest. I really appreciate ALL of the input (and BLESS YOU, soozievt for supplying much needed context and an understanding shoulder).</p>

<p>I will jump back in to the discussion again soon as I get some time.</p>

19

<p>As this is an emotionally charged issue I agree with Northstarmom that a third (or in this case fourth) party might be helpful, if only in forcing Daughter and Dad to articulate their positions in more rational terms. That person can function merely as a sounding board. I may help the other family members to relax and listen to each other explain to a counselor his or her position.</p>

20

<p>L.A. is full of therapists but if you go to one pick one who has an instant grasp of the issues either by life experience or through their practice. Another thought -- L.A. is full of private sector college counselors -- I know a few if you want referrals and at least two of them have been through the college process. They are usually very good at working with families that are making hard decisions. Good luck.</p>