Current/Future Applicants and Parents: Making a College Application List

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Southern California
1

<p>I see many posts about “dream colleges” or how an applicant feels that they have worked so hard that they “deserve” a particular college experience. I thought it would be useful, especially for parents of future college applicants, to discuss what makes a GOOD college application list that will result in GOOD options, and how to negotiate that list with your student.</p>

<h2>As a parent of a recent USC grad and a CURRENT college-bound senior, this is a subject we have covered in our family twice, with one more round coming up for our youngest in a few years.</h2>

<p>This is how LameFamily approached the college application process:</p>

<p>For their college lists we did not tell our kids where to apply, instead we outlined requirements for their list. If the requirements for the list were followed, we made the commitment that they would be attending ONE of the colleges on the list.</p>

<p>1) The most important requirement: They HAD to agree to attend ANY college to which they applied. ANY. If it was not a college they would attend, it did not belong on the list. No “Dream College” talk allowed. GOING to college was the dream, not any one college.</p>

<p>2) We would pay for up to 9 applications. No more. Of those, only two could be reaches. If they wanted to apply to more schools or reaches, they could do so on their own dime. </p>

<p>3) They HAD to include TWO financial + academic safeties. These are defined as schools where admission is assured or nearly assured and we could pay out of pocket or scholarships were guaranteed with their stats/qualifications.</p>

<p>4) They HAD to include at least TWO in-state public colleges – these could be the same as the safeties or different – their choice.</p>

<p>5) We stated, in CLEAR numbers, the maximum amount we would contribute and the maximum we would allow them in loans. We made it clear that any school that came in above those numbers would be “off the table.” </p>

<hr>

<p>Given those parameters, our oldest settled on seven schools for her list and our current senior settled on two for his (this guy is NOT wishy-washy!). Neither chose to apply to a “reach,” though our oldest included 4 schools (academic matches or safeties) where scholarships were possible, but not assured. As the info came in, they waited for us to review the dollars and cents and let them know if that school was on the table. For our oldest, 6 of the 7 worked and for our current student, both of his choices* worked.</p>

<p>*Please note, my current senior did not apply to USC. I am very aware of the financial aid process at USC and it was "taken off the table" before an application was submitted. He was not in a position to receive a scholarship, and at our income level, we were not willing to contribute the amount we knew USC would calculate. </p>

<p>How have others helped their students create college application lists?</p>

2

<p>Our family approached the “List” process over a long period of time.</p>

<p>D attended several workshops/classes at local colleges and universities from middle school on, she just liked that kind of thing.</p>

<p>We visited a variety of schools while D was in 10th/11th grade. Some large, some small, some public, some private. The first pass was to determine what type of college she liked.</p>

<p>I focused on costs and admission issues. A lot of time on CC, a lot of time on college websites, a lot of time at the library reading books, etc. I like information gathering, so this division of labor made sense. We have our own business, and that complicates financial aid. I am grateful for alamemom and others who answered my questions and recommended several books.</p>

<p>We had multiple conversations about finances. Before any applications were submitted, we talked about finances. To us, being able to pay the bill was as critical as being admitted. </p>

<p>As we got towards the end of 11th grade, we visited/revisited specific colleges so she could make up her list. We insisted financial + academic safeties being on the list. We did not limit the number of applications, in part because we didn’t have to (this kid knew what she wanted). We did insist on one “so mom can sleep” application (automatic merit scholarship – Univ of Alabama). We were VERY clear on the finances–discussions about loans, impact on grad school, etc.</p>

<p>When the “big envelope” arrived, DH and I were still a little concerned, but we felt we had done our homework. We feel USC has been very fair with our family and we appreciate it.</p>

3

<p>Now that the dust is settling on the 2013 application cycle (Spring admits are still waiting for Fall bumps and many transfers are still waiting for news - best of luck to all!) I wanted to bump this up to get discussion going for the 2014 cycle.</p>

<p>Class of 2014, PLEASE put together a list of colleges that include:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>ONLY schools you are willing to attend - do not apply to schools you would not attend (this sounds like a simple concept, but you would be surprised how many applicants come on college confidential saying they hate their safeties and they don’t want to attend them).</p></li>
<li><p>Schools that are **BOTH FINANCIAL plus ADMISSION safeties<a href=“I%20recommend%20two%20of%20these”>/b</a>. Again, you would be surprised how many applicants list an Ivy, with their excellent need-based aid, as their “financial” safety. If you are not assured of admission, it is NOT a financial safety. A financial safety is a school you are certain you can afford (either through paying full cost or through guaranteed merit aid) AND are certain you can get in.</p></li>
<li><p>One or two reaches. There is no reason to put two dozen reaches on your list unless you crave the feeling of rejection. Those who have been through it know that each and every one of the rejection letters is terribly painful - even when you fully expect them. Go ahead and dream, dream BIG, but have a clear reason for any reach you add to your list - not just that it is an “Ivy,” or “It is ranked #XX…” or “to see if I can get in…” If there isn’t a particular program or opportunity that draws you to a school, it does not belong on the list.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>THEN:</p>

<ul>
<li>Ask your parents, bluntly, how much they can/will contribute to your college education. If you get the answer, “You worry about getting in, we will worry about paying for it…” show them this thread and let them know that private colleges are costing more than $60,000/year. Buy them the book, Paying for College Without Going Broke NOW with your own money (it is about $15 or $20 in-store or at Amazon) and ask them to read it. You read it, too.</li>
</ul>

<p>Applicants, it is all about options. On May 1st, the goal is to have multiple wonderful options from which to choose. Do not allow yourself to become attached to any one school (even one as wonderful as USC). As you visit and investigate schools, imagine yourself at each one and allow yourself to see what is wonderful about each one. My hope for you is that when you make your decision on May 1st, 2014, it will be hard to let go of your other opportunities because you did such a great job making your list of schools.</p>

<p>Others who have just been through it, PLEASE add your thoughts! Those who are just beginning the application cycle, ASK the veterans! Good luck to all :)</p>

4

<p>Another thing to consider when choosing schools, is what kind of credit will you get for the classes you have taken while in high school, i.e. AP, IB, and community college. Some schools will give credit for classes, while others will not. Some schools will accept 3s on AP tests, while others require a 4 or 5. In state schools generally give credit for community college classes, while private school may limit the credit or not allow it at all. The amount of credit the student is allowed to bring with them to their new school can have a financial impact as well.</p>

5

<p>If you are looking at credit for IB/AP etc, check what type of credit: does it replace a General Ed Requirement, a required class or is it elective credit? All are good, but your need to know the differences.</p>

<p>Have a real, honest conversation about money. And if there is more than one parental household (divorce, etc) make sure you have the conversation in both households with ALL parents (include the step parents). Know what type of information each person will have to provide and make sure they are all on board. I understand this is stressful, but better to do this now than next April.</p>

6

<p>I am bumping this up for the 2014 cycle. There is a heartbreaking time coming up at at colleges across the country in August and September when students and families who identified “dream colleges” and said, “Don’t worry about the cost, just get accepted and we will find a way” receive very real bills for the upcoming semester.</p>

<p>Other families who exhausted savings paying for the first year of college in hopes that financial aid would increase the following year find that the expected contribution is driven by income and emptying their accounts had only a minimal impact on the amount they must pay. Students hoping for large scholarships for their second-fourth years discover that the large scholarships are awarded to incoming freshmen and they are battling for scholarships in the $2,000-$5,000 range that, thankfully, replace subsidized loans and work study but which have little impact on expected contribution.</p>

<p>Please, 2014 applicants, put together a great list of colleges to which you will apply that includes admissions and financial safeties that you love. I want all of you to have great options next spring. The fact is, there are nearly 4,000 colleges and universities in the US, and I am betting that, literally, thousands of them would be a great fit for any one of you and that you CAN follow you dreams and achieve success at nearly any of them. Do not get caught up in, or allow your parents or kids to push you into, a “prestige at any cost” mentality.</p>

<p>Typically when I post my point of view on this matter there are parents on this forum who are, frankly, nasty to me and tell me I am wrong. They advise students to take on crippling debt in pursuit of prestige when the identified “dreams” could be pursued at any number of colleges. I encourage those parents to post here and describe their strategy and to return in one, two and three years to follow-up on how it turned out. I encourage the students who, with their parents’ blessing and co-signature, took out $80,000 to $100,000 in loans to return 5 years after graduation to follow-up with the success of their plan and the ease of servicing that debt in their 20s while starting in a new profession.</p>

<p>The “head in the sand” method is NOT the way to go. Good luck.</p>

7

<p>Very well said alamemom. Thank you for all of your input and advise.</p>

8

<p>Read the very excellent advise from alamemom and take it to heart. Have the financial conversations NOW. If there is a divorce, talk to everyone including step parents. Know what information they will contribute (tax returns) and how much money.</p>

<p>There are a lot of colleges out there. And more than one place to get a great education.</p>

9

<p>I’m actually associated with admissions for a different college. I wholeheartedly agree with Alamemom’s approach. There is no way to “hide” assets in such a way as to lower exposure which is why so many colleges are using CSS and asking for actual copies of tax returns, and a form that allows them to get a copy directly from the IRS (for those of you thinking of fudging and amending at a later date).</p>

<p>Still - our process was this. She identified her choice of colleges. USC has been at the top of the list since she met them sophomore year at a college fair. She worked with her college counselor to identify others. Our issue was trickier because the schools had to offer film production as an option. She included a few reaches, some attainable and some safeties based on grades and scores and her school’s historical admissions rates as shown on the Naviance system. The schools asked us if there were any schools missing and as parents we added two.</p>

<p>Of the thirteen finalists, she applied to nine she felt she’d be happy attending.</p>

<p>Our criterian in order:</p>

<ol>
<li>Happy, healthy and fulfilled - how well the campus environment fit her needs and personality.</li>
<li>Fit - how she got along with other students in the degree program, similar interests, spark.</li>
<li>Budget although part of the equation wasn’t going to be the primary determining factor.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>Yes - there are a lot of colleges out there, and more than one place to get a great education. But it depends on the degree program the student wants. Not all schools will be equally comparable in terms of ancillary access to resources. </p>

<p>My feeling is - if a student is going to spend 4 years of their life at college, it should be at the most challenging place they can “afford.” and would thrive at. I have run into families who chose financials over “fit” and the students were miserable because the campus wasn’t a place where they could thrive. If colleges were interchangeable, our D was eligible for a full-ride locally. But we knew she wasn’t going to get the same intellectual stimulation there.</p>

<p>So have financial discussions now is good. We started early in high school mentally preparing her (and us) for the new reality at the top ranked schools and what “meets need” really means (limited merit, a lot of loans)</p>

10

<p>But one caveat - my college is not on the common app but has seen applications explode by 50% over the last decade. Even in a bad economy. So imagine - those schools that are on the Common App are seeing an equally large explosion and can cherry pick the students they want. That means an awful lot of students applying to schools they don’t plan to attend. But those same students are getting merit aid because the college has no way of knowing they’re a “back-up” That includes the colleges that used to be full-ride “safeties.”</p>

<p>Hence a lot of qualified students were left with no options this year.</p>

<p>It is imperative to apply to a wide range of schools. Budget extra for the costs of CSS and test score submissions. Then focus on each application and essay if your life depended on it. Those supplements when all other things are equal (grades/scores) are what is tipping the scale. I interview students who often think they know what we’re looking for and leave out the things that could have distinguished them. That year - love of bowling (or birdwatching, or …etc.) could have been the interesting aspect that put an application in the “must admit” pile. Just make sure it’s a long term passionate pursuit. Short term activities (if there are too many of them) look simply like resume padding.</p>

<p>And interview and visit the schools if you can. Showing interest beyond an internet search may also help.</p>

11

<p>Great info Arts and Letters, love that you mentioned finding the fit and how running from any financial risk can lead to an undesirable outcome as well. There should be balance and a family determines that. A student that finds the right fit is way more likely to be successful than the one just trying to get the four years overwith in the college they were stuck in to save a few bucks a year. That lack of inspiration could lead to a lackluster career as well. I also believe it is a personal and family choice on how much to take on or not to take on, there is so much background not given on a forum to make blanket generalizations to anyone. The college one attends is a big deal and can change their life for the better or worse, so they really need to evaluate it and not be told what is right or wrong for them. It is different than 20 years ago, much more competitive and a name brand college can make a difference. Some people would never consider a $120k Mercedes, others have no issue with that whether borrowing or not. Their choice to make. If a school is your Mercedes and you want to work for it, then go for it. Of course this is easier applied to students who are really willing to work who have shown they are responsible and proven, not an average student looking for the party life of college. Parents should know which type of kid they have by now and whether the investment is worth it for them or the kid to make. But even then, still their choice.</p>

<p>I too know a girl that took the big scholarship cause dad thought the dollars made more sense there, and disregarded the fit, was miserable (and often sick) for her two years and left in January and is waiting to start the school she wanted to go to in the first place this fall. Missed the whole great positive college experience. And parents didn’t save much with the extra travel and all the issues they dealt with. Financials have a place, but fit for student and goals is very important.</p>

12

<p>Same thing happened with a classmate of my older daughter. She wanted a BFA in Art, her father said she couldn’t make a living at it. She was good at math so he pushed her to take an engineering scholarship at a State University. Two years later, the miserable kid enrolled in my D’s Art college and is all smiles. This process is just so tough and getting tougher all the time. </p>

<p>But I do, also believe, that in some cases - all things can be equal. Even at USC they admitted during campus preview day that for some degrees, the extra money wasn’t always a better investment over a different school offering more aid. Then pointed out that we were “buying the network”. I thought, "No. What I’m buying is the fact that my daughter was beaming about the coursework, her peers she met on Facebook, and she said “I get to do what I love every day now.” That’s why we said yes. But we’ll concede non-essentials will be sacrificed by the family to make it happen. We depleted a lot of resources because the local school district is bad so she asked to attend a private high school. But without that change she would have never qualified for USC. So we braced and did the math and decided life had a plan for her. We’d just follow it through.</p>

<p>But given how many families I know who are already stretched to the point where this is not feasible (hence so many admitted kids dropping out due to finances after making friends on the FB page) my advice:</p>

<p>Start looking at scholarships years early. Apply for as many outside ones as you can. Load up on AP’s if the target college will take the credits, and then study like the wind for 4’s and 5’s. I tell middle school parents “START LOOKING at scholarship requirements now for each college your kid is interested in. Figure out the rules so you have a better chance of shooting for them, versus waiting until 12th grade and finding out it’s too late to make performance corrections.”</p>

13

<p>I just saw that AspirngTrojan has posted a 2014 stats thread - WONDERFUL! <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-southern-california/1535482-usc-fall-2014-decisions-stats-only-freshmen-only.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-southern-california/1535482-usc-fall-2014-decisions-stats-only-freshmen-only.html&lt;/a&gt; This is definitely an applicant who is ahead of the game. Welcome to the forum, AspiringTrojan!!! </p>

<p>I am bumping this up as The Common App opens to again remind you to put some thought into putting together a great list of colleges that will assure several great, affordable options next April. Put all thoughts of a “dream college” out of your head and do the homework to be sure your list includes financial+admission safeties you would love to attend.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

14

<p>alaemom, I think you’re advice is good in this economy, but if you do not mind, I would like to add a few words about the advice you’ve given.</p>

<p>However, with all due respect, applying to 9 schools is a bit conservative these days. As many of my friends in college admissions say, 12-15 is a better number to help get a good distribution of universities that can offer financial aid, scholarships, specialized programs, etc. Students can get universities to give more aid by telling university A that university B gave more funds and asking to increase the amount of aid to make it easier to attend university A.</p>

<p>On another note, finances should be a factor, but not the primary factor for applying to schools. A family’s financial situation might positively or negatively change over the time period from applications to the start of the 1st year of college. For students with families that have low incomes, universities such as USC and other peer universities, increase the amount of grant aid available. Some other universities (for instance, the Ivies) give almost full rides to students with lower and sometimes, middle class incomes.</p>

<p>Overall, your advice is good, but with all due respect, I just wanted to include my point of view as an alumnus.</p>

15

<p>Great to have more input! Creating a list with 12-15 schools would be fine (note that paying application fees and sending scores and transcripts would cost as much as $1,500<em>), assuming that list includes at least two financial+admission safeties the student would love</em>* to attend. And it is fine to “shoot for the moon” with applications to the schools with super aid, but those can’t be considered financial safeties because admission is certainly not guaranteed. If a family can afford the cost of all those applications and the list is well thought-out (applicants, remember - if you apply to 10 schools that each have acceptance rates of 10%, that does NOT add up to a 100% chance of admission! It still is 10% overall!) that application strategy sounds good!</p>

<p>*Application fee waivers through The Common App are limited, so be sure you use at least one for that financial+admission safety I keep harping about!</p>

<p>**The issue I see commonly in posts is that the applicants HAVE a safety or two on their list, but then state that they would never consider attending the safety. Please, applicants, if you would not consider attending a school, do not apply! Worst-case scenario is that is the only school that accepts you and you run out of options!</p>

<p>Yes, LameFamily was strict about the number of applications. LameDaughter originally came to us with 24 schools!!! The thing that really helped her narrow it down was when we said that if she applied to a school she had to agree that she would attend it if the other options were out of our budget. To me, that protects kids from having their dreams dashed - what if she had applied to a school she didn’t like and received a full ride while all her other options were beyond our budget? What would be her options???</p>

16

<p>Oh! Here is useful tool that poster collegemerit created. collegemerit did his/her own research and found dozens (might actually be hundreds) of universities that offer full tuition to full-rides based solely on stats.</p>

<p>While I do not advise that applicants apply willy-nilly to random schools that would offer a full ride, if you find one that has your program and looks like it would be a great fit, you might be able to find a great safety using this tool. With over 3,000 colleges and universities in the US, don’t limit yourself to the 30 to 50 that are discussed regularly on silly college confidential.</p>

<p>collegemerit’s tool: [CollegeMerit</a> - Colleges that offer full merit scholarships](<a href=“http://www.collegemerit.com/]CollegeMerit”>http://www.collegemerit.com/)</p>

<p>And the thread where collegemerit introduced it (if you want to post comments and kudos): <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1523536-website-calculates-automatic-full-tuition-scholarships.html?highlight=automatic+calculator[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1523536-website-calculates-automatic-full-tuition-scholarships.html?highlight=automatic+calculator&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;