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I know that because I read what you wrote and Im not intimidated to try again.
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<p>Not sure why there is a need for such an aggressive tone here! Since you mentioned having read what I wrote in the past on the subject, I assume you could understand my position without needing a Q+A session. </p>
<p>Fwiw, discussions about the Intel competition did not start with this thread. There have been two threads that grew very large and included many different points of view, including many that offered very valuable contributions by Intel semi and even finalists.</p>
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As the parent of two Intel semifinalists, I think a distinction needs to be made here. Most kids have a mentor. Mine both worked with profs from local colleges who met with them occasionally, helped them evaluate their findings, and pointed out where they needed to go back to the drawing board. However, the mentors are not supposed to be handing them the hypothesis or topic! This is supposed to be initiated by the student and, in my view, that is the sign of a good mentor. In fact, on the Intel app there are big blanks where the mentor is supposed to make an honest statement of exactly who came up with which ideas, did which work, and when. Btw, both my kids chose to do research that did not involve a lab, because we live too far away from a lab in any area that interested them. </p>
<p>I was so disappointed to read that article. Outrageous.
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<p>That article is of course the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/education/09education.html?_r=1%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/education/09education.html?_r=1</a>
that include the "famous" admission
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Aditi Ramakrishnan, a semifinalist who researched toxicity of nanoparticles in cosmetics, says she would have no project if it were not for the daily help she received from a team of nearby Stony Brook professors. "I'm only 17," she said. "I didn't have the background to create the experiment. I didn't know how to use the equipment. I couldn't create the hypothesis."
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<p>The other thread that gathered much interest was not directly related to the Intel but discussed the issue of dubious parental support and mentorship. </p>
<p>4th House, did your son have to form a membrane structure for the osmosis to take place? Because i remember this same thing being done by a chemical engineering professor at UT, but that research dealt with the development of membranes.
Also that is so great that the companies donated the materials, the cost are the BIGGEST detterent to doing any kind of research. I used money from my summer job to buy the things required for my experiments, I did not know that companies would donate.
Your son's project sounds impressive, if you don't mind what was the optimal desalination, that your son achieved? Because if i am not mistaken, there is still a residual amount of NaCl within the solution even with forward osmosis. If possible could you post or PM me your sons abstract? I love hearing about the other research people are doing, and that was one of the best parts of science fair seeing all the AMAZING projects everyone else was doing.</p>
<p>Also what colleges did your son apply to and get in?</p>
<p>Xiggi: Here in Jersey, when someone says, "If you think ... just try again!" that's interpreted the same as, "Ya wanna step outside?", thus my tone. Lastly on this subject, I responded solely to your comments on THIS thread, which were limited to Intel. I had/have no intention of scouring through 7,000-odd other postings on other threads, thus the need for the Q & A. </p>
<p>Now that that's settled ...</p>
<p>Dbate, I can only answer questions within my pay grade (which ain't high), so regarding my S's experiment, I will PM you the URL to his paper, which has already been published. Perhaps you and he can understand it, 'cause I sure as heck can't (See what I mean about lack of parental involvement and coaching!). </p>
<p>Colleges? Nothing in the Early round, but hope springs eternal for the RD round. When he was researching FO desalination, he found that some cutting edge work was being done at Yale and he developed an email relationship with some cats up there, but who knows? Outside of that, he's aiming high for the usual suspects. If I said any more than that before decisions came out, he'd kill me.</p>
<p>Actually, though, I might mention that he feels (again, what do I know?) that he got Intel more for the cumulative body of his HS career than simply the strength of that one experiment. He did experiments with FO desalination for about three years, so this was only one of a few experiments, and he also won honors in applied math competitions, econ competitions (even though his HS doesn't offer econ), misc. other academic competitions, has high test scores and a top GPA with the most challenging curriculum.</p>
<p>curious77, are you talking about Junior Science and Humanities Symposium or is the Science/Engineering Symposium something different? Never heard of the latter... S chose not to submit to JSHS. Some of his friends did and did quite well.</p>
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There is no question that success at these competitions is aided by a high school that has a program promoting research in some manner, whether it be an in school program or a program linking interested students with university labs. You can see high schools that offer this kind of support clearly demonstrated on the list of semifinalists because you will see more than one semifinalist from the high school. This does not mean that the student did not conceive of the idea and do all the work, it just reflects support and encouragement of scientific research.
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<p>S1 attended a public school that strongly supports student scientific research. Last weekend I was going through the four laundry baskets of papers he left behind in his room (sorting the wheat from the chaff) and I found the secret Holy Grail of resources that his teacher distributed junior year. Virtually everything she handed out came from online links -- pages and pages of them -- links about writing and conducting research, how to contact potential mentors, etc. No magic hocus pocus here -- just a road map so students could find their own way.</p>
<p>MIT loves people who find ways to do science despite the odds. There was a young woman who posted last year who wanted to do math competitions, but her school didn't offer any. Instead of kvetching about her sorry school and how she can't compete with those Big Name Science High Schools, she set up a math team, raised money, recruited a teacher willing to administer AMC and AIME, and set up an infrastructure for math success at her school that continues to this day. She was accepted to MIT.</p>
<p>Counting Down- Yes. The National Junior Science and Engineering Symposium. I realize the students had to start the process back in November to go through the regional and state competitions before making it to National, but still it is encouraging to see the students attend the national symposium when they all have been accepted at their colleges (and the money is not that great there either though I believe no scholarship is small). I was remarking on the fact that there are major science competitions that students participate in, where if they are seniors it will have no impact on the outcome of the college application process. It appeared to me last year that the Intel finalists that participated in the Symposium did do very well, although some others snuck in such as the son of a poster on this board (cpq1---) who this year is a semifinalist at Intel but last year placed at the National Symposium.</p>
<p>4th house- I had never heard of the Moody's Mega Math Challenge. This board is a wealth of information. Albeit to late for my younger kid who is a senior.</p>
<p>A thought occurred to me -- I think I will start a thread with links to various mentorship programs and some of the links to articles I've mentioned so that more students have access to some of these resources. I can't get to it before the weekend, but perhaps that will help with some of the inequities folks perceive in some of these competitions.</p>
<p>Not here. Oh well, as they say at the Oscars, "It's just an honor to be nominated and mentioned in the same breath with all of these other talented people."</p>
<p>2boysima---My son is a finalist.<br>
CountingDown, you may want to add the Junior Academy of Science, American Museum of Natural History's Young Naturalist Award and the Dupont Challenge to the list of competitions. I think it's a bit easier for kids without a lot of resources to participate in these. The awards aren't large in these competitions, but I think that participating in them will help showcase a passion for science.</p>
<p>Thanks, Curious77. As Parent and Ivy have said, making semifinalist is a great honor and I'm sure it will make those applications stand out even more than they already do.</p>
<p>Congratulations to your son, cpq1! What a great achievement! And congratulations also to the semifinalists. I hope that all of them have careers in science.</p>
<p>I'd never heard of Moody's either -- S would have been interested in that one!<br>
I will start a separate thread this weekend and include all this stuff. Thanks! </p>
<p>cpq1xtbu: Congrats to your son! it is a great achievement and it should give him a ticket to Harvard. I hope he excel in science in future too, we can use lot more great scientists.</p>