D in danger of flunking out

Parents Forum
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<p>"And what kind of man would want to live under his girlfriend's parents' roof? If that's the kind of man she wants, let her see what it's like to support him."</p>

<p>Michael Stivic.</p>

<hr>

<p>The history of the daughter can be found with Find-More-Posts. It seems like the daughter was difficult at home and has really spread her wings at college. But it's on the parents' dime while doing a lot of things that the parents don't want her to do.</p>

<p>Many parents lay down the law when their freshman children come back with poor grades during the break. You've seen it here many times. Sometimes it's organizational and sometimes it's just partying. If you can't fix it fast, then I'd just suggest something local until they can get their act together. Even an out-of-state public with housing is a lot of money to be throwing out the window when the student doesn't care enough to be earning her keep.</p>

<p>What I'd like to see from a son or daughter in law:</p>

<ul>
<li>Comes from a stable family.</li>
<li>No debt.</li>
<li>Independent.</li>
<li>A job with good prospects for the future.</li>
<li>Fit and healthy.</li>
</ul>

<p>We've talked to the kids about what to look for in a spouse. I have no idea as to how much has sunk in but at least they have some guidelines.</p>

22

<p>From a different perspective....my S left school in his sr. yr. in good academic standing but basically skimming by doing no work. A number of circumstances incidental to school forced the question. Along the way, we knew he wasn't doing enough but left it to the school ie. if the school will keep him, let him stay. Looking back on it --- WRONG! We should have set our own standard to keep paying and made it clear he needed a plan on how to get through school. He would have left school sooner, but it would have forced the issue sooner and with a lot less of our $$$ lost. He did have student loans, but that wasn't the same. I don't think the goal is to "get a degree"; the goal is to mature as a person who can function in the world. They need to learn the discipline to do that and not be coddled just to finish the degree. That can be done later. For many, getting into a technical program of some sort that leads to a job is a good alternative.</p>

23

<p>From a different perspective. My S left school in after 1st semester sr yr. in good academic standing. However, he skimmed along doing virtually no work. We were aware he wasn't doing much, but took the stance if the school will keep him (a UC) then let him stay in school. WRONG!!! It basically avoided the real issue going on and we continued to put our $$$ on a sinking ship. He had student loans but that wasn't enough to keep him on board. We definitely should have set out clearly what our standards were (eg. 2.5, etc) and had him have a clear plan on for school. Other circumstances forced the issue when he left school. He now wants to finish a technical program and get a degree later. The goal of college is not "to get a degree"; it is to become a mature person who can function in the world. Coddling our kids to get that degree does not accomplish much.</p>

24

<p>Continuing to play the other side, because I know nobody else will in a thread like this on this forum:</p>

<p>There's a widespread assumption that if a student is doing poorly, that must mean that the student is immature and does not appreciate education. Sometimes this is true, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes the student just never learned how to study effectively. Sometimes the student is a poor fit for the major. Sometimes there is actually something <em>wrong</em>.</p>

<p>I think that the really important thing here is to keep the lines of communication between the OP and the daughter open. That way, the OP has some source of information other than assumptions and stereotypes. In this case, I would expect the source - the daughter - to be more reliable if she isn't afraid that being candid will get her tuition yanked or otherwise get her cut off from her family. If I were the OP, I would want to get an honest answer from the daughter about why she's doing poorly (and if the daughter can't come up with any answer, I'd take that as a sign that there's something wrong), and then go from there. And the daughter is more likely to be honest - with the OP and with herself - without an ultimatum hanging over her head.</p>

<p>Personally, I think that "We will pay for four years of college, and only four years, since four years is how long you are supposed to take," is a fine incentive for a student to have their act together, and more palatable than yanking tuition. It preserves family relationships and leaves more room for dealing with unexpected situations. If they really don't have their act together, they won't finish in four years, and at that point, they're on their own financially.</p>

25

<p>"There's a widespread assumption that if a student is doing poorly, that must mean that the student is immature and does not appreciate education. Sometimes this is true, but sometimes it is not."</p>

<p>Look at the OP's posting history to see the list of issues that she and her husband have had with their daughter.</p>

26

<p>"If I were the OP, I would want to get an honest answer from the daughter about why she's doing poorly (and if the daughter can't come up with any answer, I'd take that as a sign that there's something wrong), and then go from there. And the daughter is more likely to be honest - with the OP and with herself - without an ultimatum hanging over her head."</p>

<p>From the experiences I had when I was a college professor -- and saw parents throwing good money after bad to send students to college who were getting bad grades due to excessive partying, something the students didn't tell their parents about -- and from the experience I had with my older S, I think it's naive to think that a student who's getting bad grades is going to be honest and tell parents that the bad grades are due to partying or spending too much time with a boyfriend.</p>

<p>If the bad grades are due to poor study habits, difficulty comprehending the material, etc. all colleges have places on campus that can help with these difficulties, and colleges also do good jobs in letting students know such supports exist.</p>

<p>It's not being mean to expect students to be able to get decent grades in order for parents to pay for their college. There's no free ride, and the sooner young people learn that, the better. If they want to go to college to have a fun social life while paying little attention to the academics, let them do so on their own dime.</p>

27

<p>Some of the best lessons in life result from our failures. Just look at Abe Lincoln, one of our greatest presidents. A persons ultimate success and happiness in life can overcome difficulties which happen to us as young adults provided we learn from them.</p>

<p>Ergo, do not protect your teen from failure but use it as a learning tool toward maturation and responsibility.</p>

28

<p>As always, I agree with NSM. Her sons' experiences highlight the outcome of what can happen (good and bad) when your child isn't ready (for whatever reason) to head off to far, far away (relative) college.</p>

<p>Sometimes the best gift we can give our children is the gift of time. Time to grow, explore and mature. And as NSM has pointed out over and over again it is better if this gift of time is paid for by the student. "Skin in the game", "vested interest" whatever term you wish to use, they have to know it is their decisions, their natural consequences to their own actions that determine their futures.</p>

<p>It is better that they know this up front and sooner rather than later, but better late than never. I am in the tough love group with NSM, and she is actually much less of a "mother mean" than I!!!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

29

<p>From my review of the facts, as far as I can tell:</p>

<p>a) The daughter had a GPA slightly over 3.0 for the first semester of her freshman year.
b) The daughter's average in courses in her major for the first semester was 2.5.
c) To continue to sophomore level in the major, the daughter needs a 2.5.
d) The second semester of the freshman year does not appear to be going quite as well at this time.
e) At the end of the sophomore year, the daughter needs an average of 3.0 (in the major, I think, but possibly overall) to continue in the major.</p>

<p>This does not seem to me to justify the title of the thread, unless there's something else.</p>

<p>At my large, public university, the majors that have admissions requirements higher than 2.0 are engineering, business, and education.</p>

<p>If the daughter is in engineering, the overwhelming likelihood is that she's just having difficulty adjusting to the mathematical problem-solving demands of the courses. University courses in engineering, science, and math do not much resemble high-school courses, even the courses at "good" high schools. The fact that the GPA cut-off rises from beginning sophomore to beginning junior suggests that the daughter's pattern is not uncommon among students who are eventually successful in the major.</p>

<p>If the daughter is in education, but is pursuing a science or math field for secondary education certification, then the daughter might be running up against different grading standards in science/math vs. other majors in the university. I've encountered this problem with chemical physics students I've advised. A 2.5 is actually a perfectly respectable average in science/math courses in the first three years at a large public university, although you wouldn't guess that from CC. The average of the grades assigned in our sophomore and junior courses is usually below 2.5 (often 2.3-2.4). Regrettably, this means that a student who would actually make a great high-school chemistry or physics teacher winds up looking pretty "crummy" compared with students in fields that grade higher. The College of Education has so far not set differential GPA standards by major.</p>

<p>If the daughter wants to major in business or other ed fields, or if her major is a different one, not enrollment-capped at my university, then I can't say for sure, but still the rising GPA cut-off suggests that some individual student GPA's also rise over the first two years, to meet it.</p>

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<p>I have been reading all responses including private messages. I probably should have come up with a better title. She is majoring in graphic design at a public university. Graphic design programs typically have weed out procedures after freshman and/or sophomore years because the major is so popular.</p>

<p>She is pretty serious about transferring. She is in the process of filling out a transfer application. </p>

<p>Their have been behavior problems for a while now. We have put up with a lot because we want her to get an education. My parents have told me that if I had been like this I would have been disowned.</p>

<p>I sent her an email this morning. I expressed my concerns about the grades and the transfer. I asked her why she thought the grades were low and suggested solutions such as tutoring, study skills, and considering other majors. I have not issued any ultimatums yet.</p>

31

<p>Is she realistic in her expectation that she will be admitted as a transfer to the school in your city? Or that you will pay the higher costs?</p>

32

<p>advmom- my heart goes out to you. I know you want to do the right thing for your D.</p>

<p>My inclination would be to allow/make your D responsible for her own education. She's the one who needs to discover that her current GPA will or won't allow her to transfer. She's the one who has to figure out that with your commitment to pay X per semester, she's on the hook for Y dollars and needs to find a source to pay that. She's the one who will quickly discover that an apartment costs much more than she can afford. And- cable and internet, heat, electricity, cost extra.</p>

<p>So stop being so helpful. Sit back and be supportive when asked and keep your mouth zipped otherwise. It is so hard not to protect our children from failing.... but your D is the one who needs to own the solution here.</p>

33

<p>I love the way some people considering placing reality and consequences front and center in the face of a child who is not acting responsibly is delivering an "ultimatum." </p>

<p>I think a lot of our kids knew our expectations going in, and expected - from the get-go - that they had responsibilities in this whole college thing as well. That college is not just a free ride with no adult supervision, except what these new young adults provide themselves from within.</p>

<p>Perhaps the mistake in this case may have been no clear expectations from the beginning; I don't know. But it is never too late to begin setting or clarifying expectations and responsibilities. I don't consider it punitive to make a course correction, as a family, if something is off track.</p>

<p>This D doesn't need an ultimatum. She simply needs to know the parameters: what the parents will and won't do in terms of paying college tuition (most of us are recommending they only pay it if the student is actually behaving as a student), supporting living expenses, changing to a more expensive college. What parent in his right mind would pay 3x the cost for a change in college because it is more convenient for seeing the BF?</p>

34

<p>I agree with jmmom totally. For me personally, there is no way I would pay 3x more tuition for my child in this situation.</p>

35

<p>Count me in as not being willing to pay 3x tuition. In our case, even if we wanted to do it, we are not able to do it. The OP and H should let their D know asap exactly what they are willing to pay and under what circumstances.</p>

36

<p>If the D wants to go to that more expensive college, let her know that's fine with you -- if she does all the work to transfer and also herself pays the difference. This means paying the difference without your cosigning for loans, too.</p>

37

<p>Whatever the reasons or your feelings about her behavior, I would urge avoiding ultimatums. Like it or not, she is adult, and especially since BF's mom is willing to let her stay there (albeit for overnight visits), issuing an ultimatum may alienate you from her for a long time. You have already offered help and support. I would as calmly as possible present her with the options, making it clear that whatever she chooses, you will support (morally, if not financially). For example, if she wants to transfer to a local school, she will have to do what it takes GPA wise and cover the difference in cost. You will pay whatever you feel comfortable with for her to live in the dorm. Nothing if she decides to live elsewhere. Or whatever options you're comfortable paying for. </p>

<p>If BF is truly the problem, she will get her act together and do what is necessary to transfer. You can even point out what that is as a gesture of good faith. I would try to avoid whatever would be most likely to push her toward BF and certainly to avoid burning any bridges. If she should, for instance, flee to BF's house welcomed by his mom, you want her to be able to come to you without recrimination when that doesn't work out. Otherwise, she may feel herself stuck there beyond when she would normally have called an end to the relationship, if that happens.</p>

<p>Whenever (not often) I did things my dad didn't care for, his response was always "You're 3 X 7." Treat her like an adult (whether or not she behaves like on), saying that you have encouraged her to pursue an education because you believe that is the path to a good future, but she is an adult and has to make her own decisions. Tell her what you will support financially but that you will respect any decision she makes. She may just have to learn her lessons the hard way.</p>

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<p>You got lots of good advice, I just want to chime in and agree with jmmom. I, too, would not pay 3x more tuition at this point and I would definitely set parameters. We set pretty low GPA (2.5) standards for S1 before he left for college just as reminder that there expectations that went along with our paying the tab but I can understand why that might not occur to a parent who has a high performing high school student. Our friends had children before we did, so we had seen some high high school performers flame out so we went in proactively regarding that. Good luck to you.</p>

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<p>Also, you are lucky you know what is going on.</p>

<p>A little off track, but I wanted to say that unfortunately, with FERPA, if your kid is away at school and living in an apartment and flunks out of school, you may never know, or you may not find out for months and months and months. Especially if you aren't paying his tuition or if you give him his tuition money directly. I think it is very important that parents pay any tuition support directly to the college and occasionally see transcripts that come directly from the college, not filtered through a kid who, like all of our kids, is adept at Photoshop.</p>

40

<p>H has been pushing for a "contract" for college with our S as he heads off in the fall. This thread has convinced me. </p>

<p>Best of luck to the OP and her daughter.</p>