Some (not most, not all) TO schools have a different expectation of White or Asian affluent students who attend the best HSs wrt to testing…meaning these schools would still really prefer to see test scores from these students because there they don’t face the barriers that some other types of students do when taking standardized tests.
Because Admissions department leadership and staff changeover is so high which can result in oft changing policies and practices, I hesitate to name schools…would a student like her applying TO to Bowdoin be OK? Probably. Wake Forest I am less sure about. But OP’s D’s GC should be able to sort this out.
Hm every CC parent describes their school as highly competitive? Maybe. But without naming our school you guys will just have to take my word for it. I’m pretty deep into how college admissions works and especially knowledgeable about how it works from our high school. You guys will just have to take my word for it and decide this thread isn’t something you’d like to follow.
@Sue22 thanks for the suggestion. I think Hobart and William Smith is going to be a tough sell to a student from a suburban Chicago high school. It’s not known at all even though I’m sure it’s a terrific school. I’m guessing it’s also pretty difficult to get there from here.
And the reason @Mwfan1921 thinks D should not go test optional is because she knows our high school. It has a very high SES and kids here score very high on standardized tests. Yes, there are a lot of bright and successful parents here who who have very bright kids but they also pay a lot for tutoring (both for school and ACT/SAT). It would be a red flag if she didn’t submit scores. TO is generally for students who have a better reason why their test scores might be lower.
@roycroftmom and yikes it’s not what I want. These are the schools she’s interested in and we are trying to help her inch her scores up enough to be a viable candidate. Schools like Wake or Richmond or Colgate take kids from our school who have the exact same grades and classes as D. She’s in class with these kids. She fits academically with them. It’s just the testing and prepping on her own that has become difficult.
It doesn’t seem like parental pressure to me. Students in the top quartile at a school like this one will all have highly selective unis/LACs on their lists, and many will be admitted to said schools.
Further, there are students in the bottom half of the class who not only will go to very good schools, but who will get merit at those schools, because they use weighted GPA for said merit, like at Alabama and Miami Ohio.
Of course, OP’s D could stop taking tests now, but when GPA and test scores are discrepant for a student like this, it can, in the current admissions landscape, make sense to get those more in line.
Over time I personally hope that this test taking nonsense will go away for all students and the more schools that go TO (and who apply that TO policy equitably) will help us get there. All are waiting to hear what the UCs do in the next several months wrt to going TO.
Right. I looked up Miami and D could already get between $9-$15k per year which would bring the cost down to between $35-40k per year. Well, that would be amazing. She’s have money left over for grad school if she wants it. It fits a lot of what she wants except that 20-25 kids will go there from her high school with way lower grades and rigor. Somehow, I’d have to convince her that big fish would be a good thing. Sometimes I think she’s open to the idea but, when I bring it up, it seems to shake her confidence a bit like I’m now doubting she can get into some other schools on her list. I have to find a way to present safeties so as not to turn her off.
The UCs already weight SAT/ACT less relative to HS GPA than many other colleges.
However, those colleges that are focused on climbing USNWR rankings probably weight SAT/ACT more heavily (among other things they do to game the rankings, like having class sizes at exactly 19 or 29), since it is the main factor in the “student selectivity” part of the USNWR rankings.
I have one student who preferred the format of the SAT and one who preferred the ACT. I think your daughter’s strong performance on the PSAT with no prep is a good indication that she will do well on the SAT. Focusing now on the SAT is a wise strategy. She still has time to go back to the ACT if she wants to. I know the ACT score is not what you hoped for, but I would not be discouraged. My S did not perform well on the ACT, but scored around 1500 on the SAT. FWIW, my S18 received much more merit money from Richmond than he did from Elon. We were surprised by this. Elon may have changed the way they decide on merit as this was two years ago, but thought it was worth sharing. Wishing your D much luck as she goes through the process. She sounds like a great kid with a lot to offer any school on her list!
@sue22 not to hijack, but so you have more info on Hobart? D21 liked Colgate, I thought Hobart might work as a safety along the same lines. She’s not big on Greek life tho. Does it dominate at Hobart? You can pm me to avoid hijacking! Thanks!
Thanks for creating this post @homerdog, it has been quite helpful. S20 applied to 12 schools (hunting for merit $) with multiple overlaps with your D’s tentative list: Wake, Richmond, Denison, Furman, W&M. It seems like Furman has fallen off your radar. I’d like to add a few points from our visit to consider about Furman. We noted two unique aspects of the environment in our search. 1) in touring the gym we saw not just students but faculty and staff actively using equipment, ages ranged form 20’s to 80+. There seemed to be interaction with the students, with a social and friendly environment. Ditto the cafeteria, unlike other colleges where we frequently saw students eating alone or with groups but mostly on cell phones, lap tops, etc. we saw students eating together, frequently engaged in conversation, with limited device presence. We also saw a fairly high number of faculty eating with students. Overall it gave us the impression of a strong family and supportive environment at the school. Side note, the food at Furman was probably the best we had at any campus visit, and that includes S19 accepted student days at Bowdoin, which has fantastic food (S19 chose a midwest flagship with merit over Bowdoin, but S20 has Bowdoin at top of list, will need to see how $ work out though). We are in the south, regarding another point I saw raised, we did not find Furman excessively conservative or religious, although both aspects are certainly present. In contrast, S19 has found midwest flagship far more conservative than home. Furman academics also appear to be fairly rigorous, at least in math and sciences. Overall it made our list to apply even though S20 is on the nerdy, quiet side with no interest in Greek life. Best of luck to your D in her search and applications next year!
@Mwfan1921 is correct about the “bottom half” of our class of 750 kids. 91 percent of our kids go to four year colleges and 20% of the kids have an ACT of 33 or higher. 54% have an ACT of 29 or higher. 80% have a 26 or higher.
The “bottom” 50% are mostly very good students. For D, though, since she’s in all honors and AP, she only goes to class with kids in roughly the top 20-25%. She can’t see herself going to college with the kids not on that track.
I just looked it up and we had 30 kids go to Miami of Ohio last year and I would say at least half of them were somewhere in the middle of the class. None from the top 20% as far as I could guess. Lots of these kids go to Iowa or Indiana or Colorado. Or maybe Loyola or Marquette or they leave the Midwest and go to Arizona or Alabama or Auburn. Most kids in the top 20% use Illinois as their safety school or maybe Wisconsin. She doesn’t want big and I heard her tell my H yesterday that she won’t apply to Illinois even though he told her he’d buy her a car if she went there. Lol.
I understand being realistic but I hope you can all see why going to some of these schools would be disheartening (at least at first) for D21. And just because of a test score? That’s why I’m so focused on it. And, if it seems like I’m stressed about it, I am. But know that I type that stress out here and try really hard not to show it to D. We don’t talk about it incessantly and I just try to be very matter of fact about it when we try to talk about a plan. I did overhear her talking to a friend yesterday, though, and she is bummed about that last test score. I was very positive when the two of us talked about it saying that she rocked that English - studied and went up seven points and she should be proud. Told her not to worry and she will get there eventually. Told her I understand it’s stressful and I’m sorry that the last test won’t be her last but it’s like that for a lot of kids and it will work out in the end. She doesn’t need me putting more stress on her.
@STEMFocus Thanks! Honestly Furman hasn’t fallen off. This list is still in flux. D just started reading about schools in the Fiske book and the only school we’ve even visited specifically for her was Wisconsin. I appreciate your review.
If you have any questions about Bowdoin, let me know! S19 had a very successful first semester but it’s super challenging academically there for sure. He would say he’s made very good friends and, when it comes to academics, he thinks it’s top notch after comparing notes with his high school friends at lots of other elite universities. But he would also say that his friends are having a lot more “typical” college fun. It’s a trade off that works for him but it’s not for everyone.
I get it, the New Trier type schools are tough environments academically. So are Rye, Scarsdale, Walt Whitman, etc. Every major city has its top 5 affluent suburban public schools with talented, driven kids, and the colleges do not want to fill their classes exclusively with such kids, though they are academically qualified. The good news is, there are lots of great schools, and she will find high performing, ambitious students everywhere if she looks for them.
The ACT rounds up, so she may only need 6 points more for a 31. Still a lot, but less daunting then 8. And right now a 29 puts her in the mix for a lot of schools on her list. Maybe not Davidson or Colgate, but Richmond, Wake, Elon, Bates, Denison will take that score combined with her strong transcript.
Hi @homerdog , I don’t want to pull the post away from your D’s college search, but do have a question about Bowdoin. S20 would do best in a place with good social life possible without much partying, he is into board and card games (Catan, magic, D&D, etc). He also likes to have extensive academic oriented conversations with fellow students, and strong academics and engaged students. Bowdoin, Swarthmore, Williams seem to fit that well, with some moderate concerns about athlete/drinking culture dominating social scene, especially with Williams ands Bowdoin. S20 is athletic but will not likely play a sport. Schools on S20 and your D21 tentative list like Denison, Furman, Wake, Richmond seem to be big enough that multiple groups can find what they want in the social scene. To us, a big advantage of the smaller schools is ease of making good friends. S19 has loved academics at large school, but finding friends is proving more challenging (campus so big don’t run into same people often) although he is making progress
I don’t really agree with this. Having kids who attended a very academic, high performing private school and living in a town with a very strong public school, it doesn’t ring true from my experiences and observations. Colleges go test optional because they realize not all students test well and that standardized tests aren’t a good indicator of college success. This can apply to students at a high ranking high school in an affluent area, a prestigious private, or a inner city school with limited options. Colleges also know some students are lopsided in their testing and can be okay with that, if the rest of the package is there. One of my kids was very lopsided and would have applied test optional (with experienced college counselor’s advice) had they not gotten into their selective college ED that wasn’t test optional. Applying test optional is very much a strategy used effectively by students at better high schools.
In fairness, in my original post I said it was only a potential issue at some schools…and the GC should be able to help with that should applying TO be on the table in 6-8 months. I agree that TO is a strategy that can be employed by affluent students attending better HSs.
Edited to add: it was thru my kids’ counselors that I first learned applying TO to certain schools may not get the results one wants. My kids’ school is similar to homerdog’s
If she has to take the SAT for her HS anyway, I’d just focus on preparing well for that one and make decisions after that.
As far as being disheartened at going to school with the average kids from her school…there are academically serious kids and average kids at almost every school. There are way more of the former at Illinois or Wisconsin than at the schools on her list. That doesn’t mean those places aren’t a good fit for her but I’m saying she should focus less on what kids from her school are doing, more on what she actually wants from a school. If what she wants is a not particularly intense academic experience, a social environment somewhat like a B1G school but without the size, career planning and support, well those are the same things that a lot of those average kids want too. And what a decent chunk of the top 20% might be trying to avoid.
