Dartmouth MBA vs UC Berkeley MBA vs Cambridge-Judge vs Oxford-Said

<p>Finishing:</p>

<p>
[quote]
First off, you are actually proving my point. MBA's know how to talk with a certain language? Sure, but frankly, MPA/MPP curricula are not that different from MBA curricula. There was a HBS/KSG mixer recently, and, regarding quite a few people, I'd be damned if I could tell which school they came from.</p>

<p>You also mention branding and placement. That proves my point. The general Harvard branding and placement, frankly, exceeds that of many B-schools. Let's face it. Harvard, in general, has a lot of recruiters. Furthermore, like I said before, the much of the real recruiting actually happens through social networks, which means that you need proximity to build that social network.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I just got a call from my friend who's been temping and graduated from Harvard K-School this year. I am totally serious. What did he want? He wanted help with his job search. I am being completely serious. I know I wouldn't believe it if I were you, Sakky, 'cause it's too perfect. Anyway, I asked him about his class. He said he thinks about 10% of his Harvard K-school class is still looking for work what is it 7-8 months after finishing; go to the list of top 15-20 b-schools and see how many, in a normal, year have what percentage of their classes employed by what times after graduation (these stats exist). He has a classmate who is working at a famous home supplies store (think orange and white signs with the word home in it).</p>

<p>Anyway, nothing I said proves your point because I said that an MBA provides 3 advantages <strong><em>when taken together</em></strong>: Some knowledge/language, branding, and perhaps most importantly an incredible platform from which to approach a really focused person-to-job matching system (the market for MBAs that are just graduating is incredible through the 2nd year recruiting process and because even companies that don't formally recruit on campuses will often be more open to "fresh" talent). I asked him if he thought Harvard K provided such person-to-job matching support. He said no way, and that for pretty much anybody intending to go into the private sector, getting an MBA at a "good" school was a better idea. He did say public-private or public opportunities could be better had at K-school he thought. (Finally, he said Harvard is re-establishing -- or has -- an MBA/MPP joint program that gives one both). So a Harvard degree may provide great branding, but absent the right knowledge/language and a great across-the-board recruiting process, going to Harvard just to get the right name on the resume is a silly idea, IMO.</p>

<p>Oops, happened again, continued:</p>

<p>Look, I am not arguing Harvard doesn't have a lot of prestige. It's just he said he wants a small school. If I put the two things he said he wants together and I was aiming for the utmost prestige in a small school I'd probably suggest Stanford. Also, where you really lost me is suggesting that going for any Harvard degree is worth it no matter what you study or almost no matter what you study. It's not only that it's prestige whorish, it's that it's simply wrong. People aren't that stupid in the real world; a hedge fund manager or a tech product manager going to the market is not going to pick up a Harvard MPA expecting the same level of expertise as a Cornell MBA.</p>

<p>
[quote]
First off, are you assuming that I myself am not one of his 'countrymen'? Bedhead, you don't know the first thing about me, so don't presume that you do. But of course only a guy like Bedhead would presume that he automatically know the backgrounds of everybody on CC. </p>

<p>Secondly I am simply asking the guy for more clarification on the issue. If he truly insists that this is the case, then I will take his word for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I would have thought you'd brought it up and said, "you know, I am from the Philippines too -- or at least I am of P. descent -- and when I visit that country it's always my distinct impression that...."blah blah blah.</p>

<p>I don't know that you don't have this background. What I do know is that many, many times on CC you have called people wrong and asserted things as if they were arguable facts which are actually matters of perception, experience, or simple opinion.</p>

<p>If you were just asking for a clarification, maybe I misunderstood that from your tone.</p>

<p>Now if you had an opinion poll to quote with a large sample of perception of Philippinos regarding differing opinions, that might be one thing. The fact is I don't really even disagree with you that Harvard has an amazing brand name. I just think other universities do too and I also think brand name is not everything.</p>

<p>I keep getting interrupted, sorry:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Only Bedhead would deliberately misconstrue things that I have specifically said. To wit: when did I specifically say that the OP should consider HBS? Please point to the quote where I said that.</p>

<p>What I actually said is that if he chooses not to, he should do so for the right reasons, and that dismissing HBS because he wants entrepreneurship is a terrible reason for doing so, namely because HBS is actually one of the best entreprenuership schools in the world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, here's what you actually said. It's actually less defensible, IMO, than telling him just to go to HBS. It's telling him to be a total prestige whore and just get any Harvard degree: </p>

<p>
[quote]
If school prestige is what you really want, then there is one school whose brand name transcends all: Harvard. </p>

<p>You don't even have to get into HBS. Just get into any Harvard program. By doing so, you'll be able to say that you went to Harvard. If what you really care about are a brand name so that you can impress people in the Philippines and an alumni network to leverage (not that there's anything wrong with that), then getting into some program at Harvard may be the way to go.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Then allow me to point out the fact that, according to USNews, HBS actually has a higher ranking in entrepreneurship than does Berkeley Haas (and also clearly Tuck and Yale).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay, I am going to bury the hatchet right now. Sakky, give me the best you've got. Go ahead and fire away and I'll let whatever you want to say stand. I don't think any of this is helping powergrid.</p>

<p>I only want to point out that I think it is perfectly likely that US News gives Harvard a higher rating in entrepreneurship than Haas. It is a huge school with a very powerful name and has a lot of people that take an entrepreneurial path. I just go back to the title of the post, paraphrased: Tuck vs. Haas vs. Judge vs. Said. And I specifically said I was commenting more about the Tuck vs. Haas comparison.</p>

<p>I appreciate your comment sakky, I really do. But believe me, in the Philippines, Singapore and the United Kingdom, three places where I grew up in, a Harvard degree is not an advantage, like you assumed, over a Berkeley/Stanford/MIT/Cambridge/Oxford degree. They are just about equal in prestige and brand name recognition. That's maybe not the case in the US, which I don't really care since I don't intend to stay there after I acquire my MBA.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look, I am not arguing Harvard doesn't have a lot of prestige. It's just he said he wants a small school. If I put the two things he said he wants together and I was aiming for the utmost prestige in a small school I'd probably suggest Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, not Stanford. I didn't like that school either when I visited the university. I actually even went there twice to really try to feel the atmosphere of the school but it's just not the school I want to go. It's nice but somehow, I didn't like it as much I did with Haas. And, like I said, Berkeley or Stanford are pretty identical in prestige. Choosing between them is just a matter of personal preference. </p>

<p>Look guys, I know you're having a hard time understanding me. Well, I can't blame you coz neither of you didn't grow up in a plce where I grew up. But trust me when I said Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Cambridge and Oxford are just about equal in prestige, ccoz they really are. I seriously doubt it if a Harvard guy can ever say to a Berkeley guy: "hey, I come from Harvard, the better school and I'm more successful than you are." Maybe something like that would happen in the US (though I thought it's weird), but there's no way that would ever happen in the place I come from.</p>

<p>For instance, the President of the Philippines went to Georgetown. Her son went to Berkeley. Go tell them that Harvard is better and let's see what you'll get. </p>

<p>The Senate President of the Philippines as well as several other senators went to Michigan. Tell them that H is better and let's see. </p>

<p>Several heads of state have graduated from Cambridge. Go tell them that H is better. Let's see what will happen.</p>

<p>My point is this: H is an excellent school. No doubt about that. BUT, H is not the only prestigious school and there are obviously 5/6 other equally excellent schools as H as many Asians see it. Then choosing which school to go to become a matter of preference now.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look guys, I know you're having a hard time understanding me. Well, I can't blame you coz neither of you didn't grow up in a plce where I grew up. But trust me when I said Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Cambridge and Oxford are just about equal in prestige, ccoz they really are.

[/quote]

I think you can only state that with certainty about your own experiences. I know many Asians that feel the same way about Cal's prestige being on par with any other in the world -- and also know of others that make a strict cutoff at H/Y/P/M/S. It's highly doubtful you can claim to speak for all of Asia.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For instance, the President of the Philippines went to Georgetown. Her son went to Berkeley. Go tell them that Harvard is better and let's see what you'll get. </p>

<p>The Senate President of the Philippines as well as several other senators went to Michigan. Tell them that H is better and let's see. </p>

<p>Several heads of state have graduated from Cambridge. Go tell them that H is better. Let's see what will happen.

[/quote]

I'm willing to bet that most of the individuals you mentioned above will objectively agree that Harvard is better. Being an alum of one school doesn't mean that one thinks their school is the best.</p>

<p>
[quote]
He said this in response to a point that you brought up about finance, asking for clarification. You are the one that brought it up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And why would he need clarification about the topic if he didn't care about it at all? I don't know about you, but I generally don't ask for details on a topic of which I don't care. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I just got a call from my friend who's been temping and graduated from Harvard K-School this year. I am totally serious. What did he want? He wanted help with his job search. I am being completely serious. I know I wouldn't believe it if I were you, Sakky, 'cause it's too perfect. Anyway, I asked him about his class. He said he thinks about 10% of his Harvard K-school class is still looking for work what is it 7-8 months after finishing; go to the list of top 15-20 b-schools and see how many, in a normal, year have what percentage of their classes employed by what times after graduation (these stats exist). He has a classmate who is working at a famous home supplies store (think orange and white signs with the word home in it).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You asked me for data regarding the top B-schools? Fine. Here is some. Here is the 2006 career data for HBS. Notice how 4% of the HBS class of that year secured their job after graduation. Now, granted, I can't find informati on about how much longer after graduation they got their jobs, but the bottom line is that they got their jobs sometime after graduation. </p>

<p>And HBS is (at least in my eyes) the best * of all the business schools. I freely admit that the OP is better off going to HBS than to KSG. But *even at HBS, a significant percentage of the class does not have a job at graduation. </p>

<p>Recruiting</a> at Harvard Business School</p>

<p>See, that is precisely the problem with your argument. Nobody is saying that KSG guarantees anything, and I never said that it did. But B-schools don't guarantee anything either. Like I said, there are plenty of MBA's who can't find the jobs they want, even if they come from elite schools. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, nothing I said proves your point because I said that an MBA provides 3 advantages <strong><em>when taken together</em></strong>: Some knowledge/language, branding, and perhaps most importantly an incredible platform from which to approach a really focused person-to-job matching system (the market for MBAs that are just graduating is incredible through the 2nd year recruiting process and because even companies that don't formally recruit on campuses will often be more open to "fresh" talent). I asked him if he thought Harvard K provided such person-to-job matching support. He said no way, and that for pretty much anybody intending to go into the private sector, getting an MBA at a "good" school was a better idea. He did say public-private or public opportunities could be better had at K-school he thought. (Finally, he said Harvard is re-establishing -- or has -- an MBA/MPP joint program that gives one both). So a Harvard degree may provide great branding, but absent the right knowledge/language and a great across-the-board recruiting process, going to Harvard just to get the right name on the resume is a silly idea, IMO.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, you are comparing 2 different things. Again, nobody is disputing that the career resources at HBS are better than at KSG (although, again, even some HBS grads can't find jobs they want by graduation). But that's not the question on the table. The question on the table is, does KSG provide better career resources than the MBA program at, say, Cornell (the #15 ranked program)? To that, I would say, yeah it probably does. Let's face it. I don't want to be overly harsh, but the Cornell Johnson School isn't exactly the most richly endowed of B-schools in the world, and Cornell University in general does not have the overall breadth of resources that Harvard does. Furthermore, recruiting at KSG is greatly eased by the fact that you are within a major metropolitan area, compared to being confined to a rural pocket like Ithaca. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that not all B-schools really provide the "top" person-to-job matching that you tout. The best ones like HBS do (although, like I said, even at HBS, a significant fraction of grads do not have jobs by graduation), and the rest of the M7 do. But a strong drop-off occurs as you start going down the rankings. At some crossover point, you are probably better off just going to KSG and taking advantage of the branding opportunity and the better Harvard alumni network available there. </p>

<p>Let's not romanticize B-schools. They aren't the perfect paradises that you are portraying them to be. Not every MBA student gets what they want. I know a lot of MBA students from elite schools who not only did not get the jobs for the companies that they wanted, they didn't even get jobs in the industry that they wanted, and had to go back to their old industry that they don't really want, just to pay the bills. </p>

<p>
[quote]
. Also, where you really lost me is suggesting that going for any Harvard degree is worth it no matter what you study or almost no matter what you study.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You didn't read carefully enough. What I said is that if prestige is what you really care about, then, frankly, any Harvard degree will do. Is that really a controversial point? Whether we like it or not, Harvard has the most prestigious brand name in the world. The real question you then have to ask yourself is how much do you really value prestige? If prestige is all you care about, then going to Harvard (for any degree) probably is the way to go. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It's not only that it's prestige whorish, it's that it's simply wrong. People aren't that stupid in the real world; a hedge fund manager or a tech product manager going to the market is not going to pick up a Harvard MPA expecting the same level of expertise as a Cornell MBA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, I think you massively overestimate the integrity and quality of the hiring/HR process. It's not so much about having some manager 'pick' you, it's really about just getting into the interview room in the first place, which often times tends to boil down to impressing somebody in HR to even let you in the door. You can't get the offer if you can't even get in the door. </p>

<p>Secondly, and probably more importantly, as I think you know, a lot (probably most) of hiring is done through social networks, of which alumni networks is certainly one important feature. Hiring managers often times don't "pick" a Cornell MBA or a Harvard MPA. What they are really doing is "picking" somebody that their friend recommended. Let's be perfectly honest. At almost any company, you will find employees who got hired into the company because they knew people on the inside. </p>

<p>By going to KSG, you are giving yourself access to the best alumni network in the world. That is a tremendously valuable resource to leverage. So much so that B-school administrators themselves will point to the alumni network as one of their core offerings they are providing. Why do they do that if the alumni network does not hold value? In fact, I recall that one of the core offerings that a representative of the Oxford Said MBA program was touting that, while the program was very new, they can still offer networking access to the general Oxford alumni network. </p>

<p>But be honest, who has a better alumni network than Harvard? Now, granted, HBS specifically has a tighter alumni network than any other part of Harvard. Hence, if the OP can get into HBS, then of course he should pick that over KSG or any other part of Harvard. But what if he can't? Again, what if the best he can do is get into the #15 B-school? Is it really so insane to prefer the Harvard alumni network? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, I would have thought you'd brought it up and said, "you know, I am from the Philippines too -- or at least I am of P. descent -- and when I visit that country it's always my distinct impression that...."blah blah blah.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why would I have to do that? I think you know full well that I rarely, if ever, talk about my personal biography publicly. </p>

<p>However, you shouldn't presume that you know anything about me or anybody else on this discussion group. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't know that you don't have this background. What I do know is that many, many times on CC you have called people wrong and asserted things as if they were arguable facts which are actually matters of perception, experience, or simple opinion

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am simply expressing my opinions as I see them, and when they differ from others, I am asking for clarification and supporting evidence. If they provide it, then that may compel me to change my mind. I have changed my mind when somebody presents to me new evidence of which I had not previously been aware. </p>

<p>But my stance is that if people have opinions, they should be based on the best verifiable facts and data that I can then examine, or if that is lacking, then at least they should be able to present a cogent argument as to why they believe what they do. If they cannot, then I will probably be unconvinced. </p>

<p>Everybody is obviously free to have their own opinions. But I am also free to have my own opinion and to be able to express that opinion and to also express how mine differs from theirs. That is what a discussion board is all about. It's all about being able to read different opinions. Why even have a discussion board if people can't discuss their opinions? Those who don't like my opinions are free to not read them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For instance, the President of the Philippines went to Georgetown. Her son went to Berkeley. Go tell them that Harvard is better and let's see what you'll get.</p>

<p>The Senate President of the Philippines as well as several other senators went to Michigan. Tell them that H is better and let's see.</p>

<p>Several heads of state have graduated from Cambridge. Go tell them that H is better. Let's see what will happen.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The way that I would characterize the situation is that we should ask, if we could go back in time and if those people had been admitted to Harvard (for undergrad), would they still have chosen to go to the schools they did? I think most people would admit that they would have chosen Harvard. Not all. The Harvard yield isn't 100% (it's something like 77%). But most. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Look guys, I know you're having a hard time understanding me. Well, I can't blame you coz neither of you didn't grow up in a plce where I grew up. But trust me when I said Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Cambridge and Oxford are just about equal in prestige, ccoz they really are. I seriously doubt it if a Harvard guy can ever say to a Berkeley guy: "hey, I come from Harvard, the better school and I'm more successful than you are." Maybe something like that would happen in the US (though I thought it's weird), but there's no way that would ever happen in the place I come from.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, that doesn't happen in the US either. It's not about people going up to other people and blatantly asserting that their school is better. It's really about wanting access to superior educational resources, a better brand name, and a better-connected alumni network. </p>

<p>For example, I know an HBS guy who just landed his dream job in a hedge fund. How did he get the job? Simple. As a student, he played tennis and squash with a bunch of other HBS students, and that fund was started by one of those students' fathers. If he had never come to HBS, he would never have met that guy, and hence he wouldn't be working for that guy's father. </p>

<p>I'll give you another example, although this is regarding Stanford. But it has to do with entrepreneurship, which is something that you said that you were interested in. I know a guy who got his Stanford MBA with the express intent of starting a tech company. He just recently received a big venture capital infusion into his company from one of the top VC firms in Silicon Valley. How did he get it? Simple. One of his old Stanford MBA buddies actually works for that VC firm as an associate, and that was his in. If he didn't have one of his friends working for that firm, he probably would have never gotten the chance to present, and hence he wouldn't have any funding. But now, not only does he have the funding from this VC firm, but the fact that he got funded has attracted the interests of not only other VC firms, but also the interest of suppliers and partners. Hence, the initial VC firm not only provided him with capital, but also with market credibility. He probably wouldn't have any of this if he had never gone to Stanford as that is how he met his key contact.</p>

<p>Like it or not, that's how business actually works. Business success has a lot to do with social networking. It's not so much about what you know than about who you know. Universities are a powerful way to build valuable social networks.</p>

<p>So again, it's not about a Harvard guy going up to a guy from some other school and asserting dominance. It's really about a Harvard guy having access to opportunities that the other guy does not have.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I only want to point out that I think it is perfectly likely that US News gives Harvard a higher rating in entrepreneurship than Haas. It is a huge school with a very powerful name and has a lot of people that take an entrepreneurial path. I just go back to the title of the post, paraphrased: Tuck vs. Haas vs. Judge vs. Said. And I specifically said I was commenting more about the Tuck vs. Haas comparison.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And I brought up the entrepreneurship angle because of the following comment of the OP's
*
"I also have talked to some HBS alumni of the school and they keep telling me: HBS is the best because we send out more HBS grads to Wall Street, IB, MC, etc.. I thought it was cool if that’s what you want but not everyone who studies MBA would want to end up as an investment banker or management/financial consultant in Wall Street. I thought owning a company is so much better than working for somebody else’s." *</p>

<p>That seems to indicate that the OP believes that HBS is inappropriate for entrepreneurship, when in fact, HBS is one of the very best schools for entrepreneurship, and in particular, is probably better than Haas (and is clearly better than Tuck or Yale). </p>

<p>The point is, if you want to turn down HBS for another school, that's fine, but you should be doing so for other reasons. Turning down HBS because you think it won't provide you with strong entrepreneurship opportunities is a decision that is not supported by the evidence. HBS is an indisputably elite entrepreneurship school, any way you want to cut it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I didn't like that school either when I visited the university. I actually even went there twice to really try to feel the atmosphere of the school but it's just not the school I want to go. It's nice but somehow, I didn't like it as much I did with Haas.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think fit is the key to your "equation," powergrid. And it seems to revolve around 3 issues judging by what was talked about here: what feels right, where you see yourself immediately after business school and down the road, and what you want to do specifically.</p>

<p>I worked for an extremely prestigious b-school for some time (I'd rather leave out which one), but suffice it to say it would be considered in the top 5 in the US for certain in 90% of rankings. In talking with my peers at other top business schools as well as a lot grads, there are two things I would notice about the choice one can make: 1) You've already figured out: small is really, really good. The people I know who went to small business schools are the ones who get the really wi s t f u l look in their eyes most often and remember that time with greatest fondness. One, in fact, was a friend of mine who became a highly placed analyst at UBS; he had gone to Haas and said that years later his classmates were really in touch and would gather periodically in different parts of the world. I have heard that Tuck has this flavor too. This may not be something that shows up in rankings, but can really enhance your life and enjoyment at school and for the rest of your life. 2) Non-conformist is good. I know it may seem ironic to choose a business school on the basis of non-conformity. But some business schools just exude, for instance, a mentality that only finance or consulting are the only things worth considering. Hey, if you want to do finance or consulting, more power to you. I have nothing against that. But do it because you want to, you really, really want that, not because the herds are driven in that direction as in so many cases they are. And I am telling you that in the b-school environment that happens a lot. There is an argument that those are the fields that allow progressing into other roles with developed skills. That's good if you still don't know what or in what field you really want to do something as well as if you really know you want to be in those fields. Also, there is a feeling that those are the fields of great prestige. </p>

<p>Finally, I put location as an important factor in my choice of a grad. school, and have never regretted doing so. Go to a place you want to live for 2 years.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm willing to bet that most of the individuals you mentioned above will objectively agree that Harvard is better. Being an alum of one school doesn't mean that one thinks their school is the best.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Better in what? Berkeley kicks Harvard's arse in several fields. I would say HBS is generally better than Haas for many things -- though it's huge and apparently not what the poster is looking for. Were you talking about business or a smattering of other fields?</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's highly doubtful you can claim to speak for all of Asia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He claimed to speak for the Philippines, not Asia. On the larger point, perhaps no one can represent the views on an entire country or region his- or herself. But he can tell you that these schools are all in a top echelon, generally speaking. And unless you cite an opinion poll to substantiate your view, what are you doing differently from what you are criticizing?</p>

<p>
[quote]
He claimed to speak for the Philippines, not Asia. On the larger point, perhaps no one can represent the views on an entire country or region his- or herself.

[/quote]

See below:

[quote]
H is not the only prestigious school and there are obviously 5/6 other equally excellent schools as H as many Asians see it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
And unless you cite an opinion poll to substantiate your view, what are you doing differently from what you are criticizing?

[/quote]

Easy -- I'm not projecting my opinion as anyone else's but my own.</p>

<p>Sakky, upon reading some posts here on CC, I gathered that H is more prestigious than any other institution, in the US. I also gathered the following:
H is very rich -- has the highest endowment fund
H has the number 1 med school and business school
H is number two in Law
H is not a top 5 school in engineering
and so on.</p>

<p>However, that's true in the US -- alone. That's not exactly the same thing in other countries, especially true in the Philippines, UK and Singapore, 3 places where I have lived. </p>

<p>Let me ask you this: what exactly is the advantage of a Harvard degree over a Berkeley degree in the Philippines, Singapore and UK? If you know of one, I would like to know what that is. Really. Because based on my personal knowledge, notice I said personal, there is none. A degree from Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Cambridge, Oxford and maybe Yale is just as prestigious as a degree from Harvard. I cannot identify any extra advantage of a Harvard degree over a Berkeley/Stanford/MIT/Cambridge/Oxford degree just as you have seen. In fact, in the Philippines, a degree from Michigan could open more contacts than a Harvard degree because Michigan alumni in the Philippines are very strong and their network is bigger than that of Harvard's. In some fields such as Electronics engineering, Civil Engineering, computer science, chemical engineering, chemistry, physics, etc. a Berkeley degree carries more weight than a Harvard degree.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Let me ask you this: what exactly is the advantage of a Harvard degree over a Berkeley degree in the Philippines, Singapore and UK? If you know of one, I would like to know what that is. Really.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then let me tell you of 3 major advantages when it comes to business. </p>

<h1>1 - the network</h1>

<h1>2 - the network</h1>

<h1>3 - the network</h1>

<p>So if you haven't gathered it, I think the biggest advantage - by far- of a Harvard degree, is the power and the cohesiveness of the alumni network. Harvard graduates not only tend to occupy powerful positions, but are absolutely notorious for their "incestuousness". Harvard is the one school, above all, that seems to ingrain an ethos of hiring and otherwise providing preference to other alumni. </p>

<p>As a case in point, take President George Bush. Whatever you might think about the politics of Bush, I think nobody can dispute that he is an extremely powerful individual: probably the most powerful man on Earth. He is a Harvard graduate. His administration is filled with a lot of other Harvard grads. For example, his former Attorney General is a Harvard grad. The current Secretary of Labor. The Secretary of the Treasury. The Secretary of Homeland Security. The chair of the Council of Economic Advisors. The list goes on and on. Yet notice how there are relatively few Berkeley or Michigan grads advising Bush, a striking fact when you consider just how much larger Berkeley and Michigan are compared to Harvard.</p>

<p>Now, again, I didn't bring this up to make this a discussion about politics. The point is, whether you like Bush or hate Bush, you cannot deny that he is an extremely powerful Harvard graduate who has filled with administration with many other Harvard graduates. I'm sure there are plenty of worthy graduates from other schools who probably deserved to be hired into powerful positions but were not because Bush decided to appoint a Harvard graduate instead. Fair or not fair, whether we like it or not, that's how the world works. </p>

<p>Look, whether we like it or not, the world is not entirely meritocratic. In this world, it's not so much what * you know, but rather *who you know that determines your success. Plenty of deserving people can't get the job they want, or can't get the funding they want, or can't the business opportunity they want simply because they don't have the right contacts. It's sad, it's unfortunate, but that's life. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. Even in the US, the truth is, most people get hired for a job not because they were deemed the most qualified for the job as determined by some neutral competition, but because they had a friend or relative already in the company who vouched for them. In fact, the first thing they teach you in any job-hunting book is to use your network of friends and family to see if any of them know of an open job. I have to imagine that this is just as true in the Philippines, and perhaps even more so as the US is a more developed nation than is the Philippines. </p>

<p>
[quote]
n fact, in the Philippines, a degree from Michigan could open more contacts than a Harvard degree because Michigan alumni in the Philippines are very strong and their network is bigger than that of Harvard's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not just about the size of the network, but about the power and utility of the network. A big network is not enough. The people in the network also have to be powerful and want to help you. A corollary of that is that the network also has to be exclusive. One of the major problems of the Michigan network (or the network of any other large state school for that matter) is that they're probably too big, meaning that a Michigan grad trying to leverage the network for a job has to compete against all the other Michigan grads who are also trying to leverage the network for the same job. </p>

<p>
[quote]
In some fields such as Electronics engineering, Civil Engineering, computer science, chemical engineering, chemistry, physics, etc. a Berkeley degree carries more weight than a Harvard degree.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Um, last time I checked, Harvard was rated basically equal to Berkeley when it comes to chemistry and physics. Engineering, sure, Berkeley is better. But Harvard is an absolute powerhouse in the natural sciences.</p>

<p>But in any case, you're not going into those fields, so who cares, right?</p>

<p>This also actually gets to another tangent which I have discussed numerous times in other threads but I will try to briefly summarize here. In this world, whether we like it or not, true power is not held by scientists and engineers, but is instead held by politicians, lawyers and businessmen. In these fields, I think it is indisputable that Harvard holds a strong edge over Berkeley. I wish it wasn't true. I wish that engineers, in particular, got more respect. But they don't. You can be the greatest engineer in the world, yet still have to submit yourself to the whims of a business manager. Managers tell engineers what to do, but engineers don't tell managers what to do. It's sad that that's the way the world is. But that is the way it is.</p>

<p>To quote Ann Friedlaender, former dean at MIT, "Too many M.I.T. graduates end up working for too many Princeton and Harvard graduates". What she was really getting at was that too many engineers (of which MIT and Berkeley churn out plenty) are working for too many managers and bankers (or which Princeton and Harvard churn out plenty). Sad but true that this is the way of the world. In fact, that is why MIT is looking to expand its horizons to beyond engineering, because even MIT realizes that engineering acumen has its limits when it comes to truly shaping the world. You can have the greatest engineering ideas in the world, but it doesn't matter if your manager decides not to use them. </p>

<p>M.I.T</a>. LOOKS BEYOND ENGINEERING - New York Times</p>

<p>“I have not really heard of Tuck until I did some research about business schools in the US. Dartmouth is known but not well-known there.”</p>

<p>I’ve been to Asia and Europe (mostly Hong Kong, Singapore, and London), most of the people who I talked with (mostly bankers and hedge fund PM’s) not only know of Dartmouth Tuck, but also regard it highly (among the top 7 business schools in the US, in the group after Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton: Kellogg, Columbia, Booth).</p>

<p>“There are other schools that carry as much weight in prestige and reputation as Harvard and these are Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Oxford and Cambridge (and Yale to some extent, mostly in Law)”
The only place where I heard Oxford and Cambridge spoken highly of is in former British colonies. Else where in the business world, no one would mention Oxbridge on the level with Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Kellogg, Tuck, and Booth. Only the London Business School comes close.</p>

<p>

Come on, Tuck is a top 7-15 school? Your list leaves out Sloan, which to some are better than Kellogg, CBS, Booth, and maybe Wharton. Out of the list, the only school Tuck is better than is CBS.</p>

<p>Back to the OP’s question.</p>

<p>Haas = Tuck (depends what you want to do after MBA, or what kind of atmosphere you want. When a school boast underground tunnel during campus interview, you know the weather is gotta be pretty bad).</p>

<p>Oxbridge is probably on par with a top 15-20 US MBA program. They have good parent institution, but I don’t see the value in their MBA programs. I don’t think one year gives you the adequate b-school experience, especially if you don’t get to experience an internship. The best classes are those SY electives, or a hands-on mentored study/entrepreneurship experience.</p>

<p>I think this thread gets at some of these questions:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/business-school-mba/1001129-economist-magazine-mba-program-rankings.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/business-school-mba/1001129-economist-magazine-mba-program-rankings.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I have no idea about the British business schools. Those schools are so new, though, that it’s hard for me to believe they rival the best or oldest US b-schools.</p>

<p>I hated to go back to this thread and see that I wasted so much time three years ago debating such a useless topic as the absolute/relative value of any degree from Harvard. Shoot me. Glad I stayed away from CC for a long, long time.</p>

<p>“Come on, Tuck is a top 7-15 school? Your list leaves out Sloan, which to some are better than Kellogg, CBS, Booth, and maybe Wharton. Out of the list, the only school Tuck is better than is CBS.”</p>

<p>I never said Tuck is better than Kellogg, etc. The fact is, other than Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton, the next few business schools including Tuck, Kellogg, Sloan, LBS, etc. each have their own advantages, and it can’t be claimed that either is better than the other. Yale, Oxford, and Cambridge are not in that group. If you try to talk about how you went to Yale and Oxbridge for business in a way that suggest you think they are better than Tuck, LBS, Kellogg, Columbia, Booth, etc., whoever are listening would probably smile at you nicely but think that you are an idiot. I’ve met people who did that while talking in a group, and when he left, everyone seemed to agree that he was a fool.</p>

<p>“I have no idea about the British business schools. Those schools are so new, though, that it’s hard for me to believe they rival the best or oldest US b-schools.”</p>

<p>They are not rivals to American business schools. The best three business schools are in the US. The only foreign business school that makes the next tier is the London Business School.</p>

<p>Honestly, I would rather attend Yale-SOM than Dartmouth-Tuck. I can see that Yale has more potential to move up in the rankings than Dartmouth has.</p>