Dartmouth or Cornell ED?

College Search & Selection
1

I posted few questions about whether or not to apply Williams ED, but after some careful consideration I think I’d rather do a binding admission to a school that has an engineering program.
Right now I’m considering between Cornell and Dartmouth. I’m interested mostly in computer engineering, computer science and electrical engineering. If I switch to natural sciences it would be to physics.
If I apply ED to one I’d apply RD to another. I’m an international student (from South Korea) and I’ll be applying financial aid for both. (Hopefully I have better chances with FA if I apply ED)
I’m planning on going to a grad school after undergrad, and I might attend a business school if I decide I want to do business. My main career goals are either research (engineering or physics) or entrepreneurship.

My other early plans are EA to MIT (top choice), U Michigan and UNC Chapel Hill.

2

Cornell has more extensive offerings in engineering than Dartmouth.

If it matters, Dartmouth has very high sorority and fraternity participation.

3

If it matters to you, Cornell is much larger than Dartmouth and has about four times as many students.

4

Dartmouth has a lot going on for it. But engineering is not one of the top programs. I think ranked somewhere in the 50s. Computer engineering at grad school level it’s not top 50 or for computer science. I’m sure it’s great in its own right. But you want to use your ed for a great engineering program there’s dozens of options more esteemed in that part of the academic community.

5

I believe Dartmouth engineering is a five year program. You receive a well rounded education but it does not have the depth of engineering courses found at Cornell.

If you have not looked already, I suggest you add WPI, RPI, and Stevens to your list of possibilities.

Check out this website. He has a PhD in EE from WPI. Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWXhBbrceu4.

WPI class of '68

6

@retiredfarmer Are these schools technical schools (like Georgia tech)? Bc I prefer a liberal arts themed school than a technical school

7

I think you will get excellent depth in math and science at Dartmouth (fundamental for engineering) and of course its Liberal Arts are on an elite level. Its not highly ranked due to the small nature of the engineering department.

8

5 years for the ABET-accredited BE program intended for those who want to work as engineers.

4 years for the non-ABET-accredited AB program that appears to be for those who want some engineering background while going on to traditional Ivy League careers (e.g. management consulting, Wall Street).

9

@ucbalumnus Is the 4 year non-ABET program also for going to a grad school for engineering? And I heard that engineering opens up more doors, so could you go to a grad school for either engineering or natural sciences if you do engineering undergrad?

10

Although some students do go to engineering graduate school from an undergraduate degree not in engineering or not ABET accredited, that is not the preferred route for most kinds of engineering, since the student will likely have to “catch up” some undergraduate work while in graduate school.

Similarly, going into natural sciences graduate programs from a different undergraduate field may also require some “catch up” of undergraduate work while in graduate school.

11

@ucbalumnus So at the bottom line, do you need to do the 5-year ABET accredited engineering program in order to have a career in engineering? what about engineering-related entrepreneurship?
Is Cornell’s program the same?

12

@geekgurl
All of the historically technological universities have similar roots as they were all founded to teach the application of technology to solve manufacturing problems. A lot has changed over the years as the rapidly evolving nature of engineering problem solutions required more interdisciplinary thinking. The modern application of technology has made clear that this is not just a field for backyard auto mechanics. but an excellent platform for design of more effective solutions.

RPI, MIT and WPI are the three oldest technological Universities in the US. Georgia Tech, as its name implies, is a technological university. We often refer to them as STEM universities. Please do not assume that they are all the same.

Engineering involves the DESIGN of WORKABLE solutions to REAL PROBLEMS in a world driven by RAPIDLY EVOLVING SCIENCE. Good design requires interdisciplinary thinking and a willingness to constantly learn and to respect (i.e., listen) to many disciplines in a constantly evolving environment. This may or may not be taught in four or even five years of classroom lectures. It is not the exclusive preview of LA colleges or of engineering institutions. It requires the development of an attitude which can also be encouraged by experience outside of a classroom lecture.

Some points to keep in mind:
1. The half-life of “state of the art” engineering knowledge is about three years (consider chip designs);
2. Engineering developments have huge political and economic implications (consider the internet and cell phones):
3. If you were to master engineering, psychology and economics economics at a point in time, you would still not be on top of your game for long because of the rapid growth in the natural sciences;
4. Continuous self-education is necessary and one needs to habitually “learn how to learn:”
5. How do these different universities address these important issue?

ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology) plays a big role in engineering education and is important from an employment perspective. They have some strict requirements on the amount of time spent on specific covered information. ABET requirements differ depending on specific fields of study, but this does not mean that all the programs are the same. ABET offers some flexibility to address the broad interdisciplinary studies problem. Specific ABET requirements do take up a big piece of your time. For listing of ABET approved programs see https://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx

Music is a common interest among mathematically minded students. Music can do a lot to free ones creative juices. Consequently the musical interest and activity level at many STEM schools is very high.

Cornell, Dartmouth and Brown are three “Ivy League” Universities which offer three different approaches to engineering. Only Cornell offers the wide range of ABET approved engineering degrees. Although it is a broad and fully developed university, it does not mean that you will have additional time to study courses outside of the ABET requirements. This same format is largely available in STEM universities. Dartmouth also requires five years of study and offers you more time for input in non-engineering courses. Brown has a completely fluid program which you design yourself. You may have an ABET or a non-ABET approved degree depending on how you select those courses.

Within the ABET framework, WPI uses interdisciplinary project vehicles to address these problems. Every student designs a humanities minor and an interdisciplinary team project in any of 46 centers around the world. See https://www.wpi.edu/project-based-learning.

Good luck! Please do not work off of assumptions. Ask direct questions and dig for answers. Working problem solutions require it! Good luck, we need broad minded engineers!

WPI alumnus "67

13

If you intend to make a career in engineering, start out in an ABET accredited undergrad program. You won’t get shortchanged in the humanities/liberal arts part of your education attending an engineering school. All ABET accredited engineering programs have a significant liberal arts component. The ABET requirements mandate a specific sequence of coursework. Since engineering is taught at the undergraduate level, the 4 years of the program by necessity consists of the theoretical and applied coursework necessary to be able to effectively practice engineering. It isn’t an “add on” to a liberal arts program but rather it is itsekf a standalone program. That is also true of other undergraduate professional majors.

In my view, 5 years to get an ABET accredited engineering degree from Dartmouth (which is a minor player in engineering) when practically all other schools do it in 4 is a nonstarter, but of course that is up to you. If I were reading resumes of candidates for example, the nonaccredited “BA in engineering” (which Dartmouth I guess refers to as an “AB”) would be relegated to the circular file.

If you want to obtain the professional license (PE) in your state if required in the type of engineering you practice (civil, environmental, anything related to oublic safety/public works, etc.), or if you want to be an engineer in the federal and most state governments you have to have an ABET accredited degree.

Stevens for example was the first technological university in the US with a dedicated Humanities department (which the founders modeled after the “Belles Lettres” curriculum of the European universities in the early 1800s) and is considered a benchmark for a “liberal-technical curriculum” today. That has evolved into a dedicated College of Arts and Letters. All engineering students take a significant compliment of literature, history, arts, and other liberal arts courses. A double major in engineering and a liberal arts discipline is possible (leading to both BE and BA degrees) and minors as well. There is also a cross-registration program with New York University, a 20 minute train ride across the Hudson River, to take courses in their Arts and Sciences school as well. As Mr. Farmer states, many schools recognize the importance of well rounded engineers.

Hope this helps and best in your academic career!

Engineer80, Ph.D., Engineering Physics, Stevens Institute of Technology, MSEE, MIT, BE, 1980, Stevens, PE.

14

Why does Cornell offer BSc for engineering programs if it’s ABET accredited? And do grad schools prefer ABET accredited undergrad programs?

15

The title of the degree isn’t a factor. Most schools offer a BS (or BSc). Many name the particular specialty on the diploma (eg., “Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering”, or mechanical, civil, chemical, etc.). Others use the name “Bachelor of Science in Engineering” (BSE), and others use Bachelor of Engineering (BE). The choice of title has no bearing on ABET accreditation, you can look up accreditation status of a particular degree program on ABET’s website, abet.org. The school also usually will state if a program is ABET accredited. A “BA” as an ABET accredited program is unusual, but there is nothing preventing such a program from being accredited (it would still have to follow all the course and content requirements of ABET).

Many, but not all, graduate engineering schools prefer graduates with undergraduate engineering degrees. Some require the applicant to hold an ABET accredited undergrad degree. Some graduate engineering schools will not accept non-engineering undergrads into their graduate engineering programs.

A graduate (master’s) degree in engineering isn’t a replacement for nor does it superseed an undergraduate engineering degree. A master’s is usually specialized in a particular engineering topic, and doesn’t include the fundamental engineering science, discipline specific engineering, and foundation design courses that comprise an undergrad program. You aren’t really an engineer without an undergraduate (much preferably, ABET accredited) engineering degree.

16

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By applying ED, you deny yourself the opportunity to compare multiple offers and choose the best one. If the ED school accepts you, you’re expected to withdraw all other applications (unless the ED offer is unaffordable).

Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth are all need-aware for international admissions. I would not expect as big an ED boost for high-need internationals as the overall RD-ED differences might suggest. MIT is need-blind for internationals.

For these reasons, I’m not sure it makes sense to apply ED to Brown/Cornell/Dartmouth when your top choice is MIT.

17

@tk21769 Why wouldn’t it make sense? It’s still better than RD because ED is less competition (like really, much less people apply). Also I’m not as obsessed with getting into Cornell ED as much as MIT EA so yeah…but I’m open for another ED school ATM.

18

I strongly suggest you further your understanding of ED. If accepted under this binding process, any EA acceptances will be superseded. That is, you will be obligated, by formal agreement, to attend your ED choice, irrespective of other acceptances.

19

@merc81 I’m aware of that. Although the sadness will be overwhelming if ED acceptance will prevent me from going to MIT, the chances are negligibly low, and I’m just trying to find a school that I can see myself in and I’m going to apply ED there. I think Cornell is a great school…? but I’m still open on other ED options, I was originally considering Williams then Dartmouth and now Cornell so I might change the ED school in the next little while.

20

OP - just think this through carefully about what you are saying. If ED is less competitive and one could get more FA then why wouldn’t every student apply ED? What do you think is holding those students back?