Dartmouth vs ......?

<p>OK, we are in for the long haul here. It will be a good 10 weeks before decision time kicks in for the next wave of admits to the class 2012. </p>

<p>I am interested in the question of why folks chose to apply to Dartmouth and what strengths you saw in Dartmouth versus some of the other schools on your list. </p>

<p>I was attracted to Dartmouth initially by the prospect of skating on D's national championship team. I had skated competitively all my life, but I had never been on a team. And while I had danced with ballet companies in a kind of team-like setting, I had always wanted to compete on a sports team. So my initial introduction to D was figure skating and the allure of team. </p>

<p>While visiting, I learned about several other, some would say more important, aspects of Dartmouth -- the curriculuar flexibility of the D-Plan, the unique Women in Science Program, its extensive foreign language department, the dance program at the HOP, etc. All of which were very attactive. And while the campus was very beautiful, there was some ineluctable spirit in the air, a feel to the place that I took to. This spirit was reinforced by everyone I spoke with -- the sense of "family", the loyalty the school engenders in alums and it really sealed the deal for me. </p>

<p>Other schools high on my list were Williams, Brown, Harvard, Princeton and Stanford -- all of which had their clear strengths but none of which had the full package. The one that perhaps came closest was Princeton, though at the end of the day, it was a tad bit precious and rarified for me.</p>

<p>I'd love to hear others' stories -- what do you see D offering you, what are you potentially giving up by not going someplace else, etc. </p>

<p>And if you haven't seen this check it out.</p>

<p>Dartmouth</a> - Sights & Sounds - Athletics - Wearers of the Green</p>

<p>Slipper1234 presented this in another thread which is a great post:</p>

<p>1) Academics/ recruiting</p>

<p>Dartmouth has very high placement rates into the top grad schools (top 7 overall), largely in my opinion due to the fact that Dartmouth offers so much to its undergrads. Dartmouth is more than twice as rich than all the non HYP Ivies on a per student basis, and it prides itself on spending its resources on undergrads. This mean lots more grants, more scholarships, more opportunities to have events with professors, etc. Dartmouth is awesome in terms of teaching and professor engagement, with ZERO T/As teaching classes. I was an anthro major and I got $10K for my thesis research and TWO incredibly active thesis advisors. I literally had some classes with less than five people at the upper levels. Dartmouth professors take you to dinner, they encourage you, and they are amazing. I think another reason Dartmouth grads do so well at grad school admissions is the fact that they know their professors so well. Frankly its amazing. Dartmouth does have a terrific LAC-like feel. People love to discard the D-plan but I thought it was awesome. Sophomore summer is most students favorite term.</p>

<p>Dartmouth's distributives are very broad but I liked being forced me to take a couple classes (like Acting for my art) that I might otherwise not have taken.</p>

<ol>
<li>Recruiting
Dartmouth does incredibly well with the elite finance/ consulting firms, only after HYP. There are three reasons for the incredible placement. 1) Dartmouth has had one of the best legacies in business of any school in the country, and these ties continue to this day. 2) Dartmouth alumni tend to favor their own more than most schools alums. 3) The D-plan allows Dartmouth students to get internships throughout the year, this is the biggest advantage. You essentially have no other competition for full time internships during the year, and this is what gets you through the door at most firms.</li>
</ol>

<p>Study Abroad?
Most students at Dartmouth go on a study abroad, many go on 2-3. Its not only a thing to do, its a way of life. The language programs are OUTSTANDING, you not only have small classes a preperation, you have drill with its "rassias method" which is an amazingly fun way to really learn a language. Study abroad programs include a professor and about 20 other Dartmouth students (which is different from other schools which have people from al schools). There are special trips every weekend and you get to become incredibly close to your fellow Dartmouth students. Also since Dartmouth is on the quarter system it allows for multiple study abroads.</p>

<p>3) Campus location and closest city/town location
Hanover is beautiful and quaint, but I found the town to be slightly stodgy and its not catered to students. ON the other hand, Dartmouth's location in the mountains is amazing. The outdoor access is awesome, people ski during the winters on the skiway, jump in the river in summers. To be honest only a select group of students are into the hardcore outdoors. Its the casual outdoor stuff like snowball fights during the winter, riding your bike through the beautiful fall leaves, the swimming in the river during summers, BBQs by houses on the river, the awesome stars when you are out at night, etc, etc. During the summer the campus feels like a magical summer camp, during the winters its charming and warm.</p>

<p>4) Social scene</p>

<p>Dartmouth is very community oriented. The Greek scene is huge, but its unlike any other greek scene anywhere. The houses are all open for parties to everyone and there's actually a campus list publishing the big parties that weekend. What usually happens is there will be two-three big dance parties a night plus lots of houses will have smaller groups hanging out. The cool thing is there is usally alot of energy as everyone is going to the same key places or are at least aware of the big parties. Its absolutely open and everyone is absolutely friendly. In addition to the greek scene there is a house party scene, smaller gatherings in dorms, plus niche scenes like the organic farm crowd or the Ledyard Canoe club crowd. The nights are full of activity. I would say that its easily one of the top 2 most active Ivies on a given weekend night. Dartmouth's downside might be that its jock culture does have power with the frats, places like Chi Heorot, Theta Delt, and Psi U are centered around sports teams and I think this can intimidating. The upside is there is a large social scene outside these places.</p>

<p>5) Campus population
People interact between groups at Dartmouth amazingly well. Yet I think some minority groups find comfort in sticking together and someone who grew up only hanging out with a particular minority crowd might like a place like Brown more. Also, a place like Brown does "feel" more international in terms of student makeup.</p>

<p>Dartmouth is a very "liberal" school, however Dartmouth is more accepting of people with the minority (conservative/ libertarian) point of view than some of the other Ivies. Overall I'd say 75-80% of Dartmouth is liberal.</p>

<p>Dartmouth students overwhelmingly are the playful, fun loving, brilliant type. People tend to play down themselves which is great and refreshing among the Ivies. </p>

<p>I've been to and know alums from many many schools and Dartmouth seems much more tightknit and friendly than most schools. Its like a family. Its not perfect for everyone but I personally could not imagine a better college experience.</p>

<p>After doing loads of research I narrowed my top choices to Dartmouth, Princeton, Brown, and Williams. None, however, could compete with my beloved Dartmouth. Maybe it would help to discuss the aspects of the other schools that I perceived to be negative before expressing the many appeals of Dartmouth. </p>

<p>WARNING: These are simply my opinions; I hope not to offend anyone.</p>

<p>Brown
It has the undergraduate focus (IMO not quite as much as Dartmouth) and the cool, laid-back student body, but I felt that Brown did not possess the strong sense of community that I greatly desired and that the class sizes were a little too big. </p>

<p>Princeton
Again it has a commitment to undergrads, but, despite its small size, it still seems like it's mainly a research institution rather than a haven for undergraduates. It could not quite escape the publish or perish mindset, unlike Dartmouth. This may be because Princeton's famous faculty wanting to maintain their reputation. The Princeton body also seemed more competitive, which detracts from its community. </p>

<p>Williams
It has a dedication to undergraduate education and a strong community environment that rivals Dartmouth, but it fell short in some other areas. The community seems to be divided into two cohesive communities: the stereotypical jocks vs. the artsy kids (No nerd conflict, because everyone is brilliant and a bit nerdy.) This was unsettling to me. Also, diversity was a large concern. Sure Williams has some ethnic diversity, but I have always been a little annoyed by the whole racial diversity ideal. I favor a diversity of perspective and experience. If a campus has an ethnically diverse population, but all the students are from wealthy prep schools, there will not be a blend of ideas resulting from cultural differences (Obviously all prep school kids do not think alike; I'm simply attempting to make a point.) which should be the point of diversity altogether, to expand and to enlighten minds. I felt that Dartmouth, although it maintains a white, New England majority, had a greater diversity of thought and experience, which was very appealing.</p>

<p>Dartmouth does not have any of the the problems that I just mentioned. Well, they were problems for me.</p>

<p>There are so many wonderful things about Dartmouth. Firstly its collaborative, inclusive, and unpretentious commmunity and incredible tradition. This is what makes Dartmouth a fun school to attend and explains the alumni's ardent support for the school, which translates to an impressive alumni network that is a great assest once Dartmouth grads enter the workforce. </p>

<p>Secondly Dartmouth has an astounding commitment to undergraduate students. They are the priority! I felt that Dartmouth had the intimacy and quality of teaching of a LAC and the resources of a research university, without letting research become a main priority. Also, being undecided about my major, the fact that Dartmouth is strong in nearly every academic discipline was a great appeal. Some people go to a school for a certain major, then rethink their interest in that major, and realize that they should have gone to another school. This will never be an issue for me at Dartmouth. </p>

<p>This post is reaching epic proportions so I will conclude with the D-Plan. Dartmouth's unique calendar system offers unequaled flexability, and since I like to work quickly and in-depth, the shorter terms with three classes were ideal. The opportunities to study abroad and the campus culture that encourages it will greatly expand my perspective, which is one of my main intentions in college. Also, the internship opportunities are wonderful, because, while everyone else is in the classroom, outstanding internships are available to Dartmouth students. This focus on application offers a chance for career guidance that far exceeds that of a counseling office. </p>

<p>Dartmouth is obviously the school for me, but it is not for everyone, rather almost everyone. If community, tradition, undergraduate focus, collaborative and fun-loving peers, going to the best school in the universe, academic flexibility, and international focus (Sorry I had to sneak that best school thing in ;-) ) are a priority and a rural campus (There is stil TONS of stuff to do!) does not bother you, then I would highly recommend Dartmouth to you. To put it succinctly...DARTMOUTH IS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>Thanks arrowsmith24,</p>

<p>Great post!!! </p>

<p>I had some of your schools on my list and could have found lots of reasons to fall in love with each of them. </p>

<p>I liked Williams a lot, the campus was a dream, the dance and arts programs fantastic. Brown's open curriculum dovetailed perfectly with my own self-directed high school program and I liked it's location on the beautiful East Side of Providence. Princeton has a great, great dance program, its commitment to the arts are fantastic, but I felt it was just a bit rarified for me -- the fit wasn't quite there for me. </p>

<p>Agree with you on the spirit at Dartmouth!!</p>

<p>Anybody esle??</p>

<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

<hr>

<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.</p>

<p>WOW!!!!!! What a foul THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, almost in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

<p>red & blue: Don't get to upset as the listing of Ivy League schools into two tiers is not taken in a serious manner by any unbiased person, especially when two of the schools listed in Tier One are not above any of the Tier Two schools and should probably be listed as Tier Three schools with respect to academic rigor.</p>

<p>Now that's overdoing it...(@icy)</p>

<p>Not really, tetris fan. I am very familiar with all of the Ivy League schools and know many students, and parents of students, who are attending all 8 schools. When was the last time that you visited any of the Ivy League schools? If not, then a visit will really open your eyes. Comparative experience and first hand knowledge is helpful in this area.</p>

<p>Many people who've read this post (when it was first posted and now) agree with it. The Thief failed to copy my entire post which states that the division is based on those schools which have an institution-wide focus on undergraduate education vs those that don't. That's what the tiers represent.
Penn, Harvard, Columbia and Cornell state they have wonderful environments for undergrad education, but none of them claim that their entire orientation is biased to favor undergrad education and leadership which the other four do.</p>

<p>One other disclaimer - my original post didn't have the sentences re happiness. The Thief's additions (Yale students are unhappy) don't match anything I've ever read or any Eli I've encountered or hired.</p>

<p>You can search this site for other posts I've made which rank the Ivy Plus schools for academic rigor and intellectual contributions to the world. In that regard, the ranking is:</p>

<p>Stanford
Harvard
MIT
Princeton
Yale
Pennsylvania
Chicago
Columbia
Duke
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth</p>

<p>There is almost no justification for any of those placements. To put schools like Cornell, MIT, Chicago below Harvard with "academic rigor" as a criteria, for example, seems out of the question. And where is Caltech? The standard of "intellectual contribution" is so completely nebulous that it can't really be taken seriously. In other words, while I'm sure we all appreciate your personal rankings, this is not in any way a useful or practical reference.</p>

<p>Icy,</p>

<p>I've attended two Ivies and have friends who have graduated from every Ivy. I've been to every Ivy more than a few times. Those ranking, for undergrad education, aren't off base. Undergrad education is very different than grad school education.</p>

<p>Perhaps the difference is views is based on your definition of academic rigor. If you take that to mean - "how hard is it to thrive there", then schools like Penn and Cornell move to the top. They both are reputed to be "the [relatively] easiest to get in to and the hardest to stay in]. HYP are supposedly the exact opposite with lots of grade inflation et al. </p>

<p>That said, in terms of scholarly impact and sheer academic firepower (which is what I meant), that listing is supported by many third party evaluations and rankings. Pound for pound, Stanford, Princeton, Harvard etc are superb places. </p>

<p>Check the following link for more details:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/322872-rebuttal-penn-bashing-columbia-univ-s-posts-shot-new-rankings-table.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/322872-rebuttal-penn-bashing-columbia-univ-s-posts-shot-new-rankings-table.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The only thing I disagree with is this whopper:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth does incredibly well with the elite finance/ consulting firms, only after HYP.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Perhaps if you do things on a per-capita base, Dartmouth would do disproportionately well, but there is no way it is going to be favored over Penn and Wharton in particular.</p>

<p>Though I should say that I really don't view "i-banks love us" as a good thing for schools anyway :P</p>

<p>Maybe the "P" is this case stands for Penn ;)</p>

<p>That's another slip in from BalletGirl, a Dartmouth fan. Dartmouth is a fine school with great students, but it is not ranked nor does it place students in grad schools/employers at levels just behind HYP. Self deflusion on Ballet's part.</p>

<p>Dartmouth actually does better than Penn undergrad (Wharton does better) in my experience when it comes to placement. It has 5/7 elite banks recruiting on campus and 4/5 of the elite consulting firms. Also Dartmouth students get a BIG leg up in terms of recruiting because of the Dplan. Dartmouth students can take advantage of Dartmouth exclusive school year internships with little to no competition, this gets them in the door. </p>

<p>As for placement in every grad school list I've seen has Dartmouth ahead of the non-HYP Ivies on a per capita basis. Take a look at Wharton, HBS, Harvard Law, Yale law etc. </p>

<p>The following is a list of undergrad institutions represented by all students enrolled in the JD Program at Harvard, Yale, and UVA </p>

<p>Harvard Law School
2006-2007 # of Students Undergraduate Enrollment
Harvard 241 6,715
Yale 113 5,303
Stanford 79 6,391
Penn 57 9,730
Princeton 54 4,775
Brown 48 5,798
Cal-Berkeley 48 23,863
Columbia 46 5,593
Cornell 45 13,523
DUKE 41 6,259
Ucla 39 25,432
Dartmouth 35 4,005
Georgetown 32 6,587</p>

<hr>

<p>Yale Law School
2005-2006 # of Students Undergraduate Enrollment
Harvard 89 6,715
Yale 86 5,303
Stanford 42 6,391
Princeton 34 4,775
Columbia 18 5,593
Brown 17 5,798
Cal-Berkeley 16 23,863
DUKE 13 6,259
Dartmouth 13 4,005
Williams College 12 1,965
U of Virginia 10 13,440
Amherst 9 1,648</p>

<hr>

<p>U of Virginia Law School
Class of 2007 Profile # of Students Undergraduate Enrollment
U of Virginia 48 13,440
DUKE 19 6,259
Princeton 13 4,775
William & Mary 10 5,651
Cornell 10 13,523
UNC 10 16,706
Georgetown 9 6,587
Penn 9 9,730
Emory 8 6,546
Dartmouth 7 4,005
BYU 7 30,798
Yale 7 5,303</p>

<p>What are the 5 elite consulting firms? I know McKinsey, Bain, BCG but what are the other 2? Monitor?</p>

<p>Consulting</a> Firm Rankings: Vault Top 50 Management & Strategy Consulting Firms</p>

<p>I assume the top 5? I'm not sure.</p>

<p>Slipper, I doubt Dartmouth does better than Penn in placement into Ibanking and consulting firms. Curious that you exclude Wharton but implicitly include Engineering and Nursing in your "calculation."</p>

<p>Either way, that's not at all the issue that was posited. The statement was that "Dartmouth places just behind HYP". My point is = that statement about Dartmouth is hyperbole.</p>