<p>OP we'd really be much more helpful if we knew more about the schools she did like and what she was interested in.</p>
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<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>If your child is not really a competitive applicant to School A, the same qualities will tend to make her a noncompetitive applicant to Schools B-F, too. (And vice versa.)>>></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
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<p>If your child is not really a competitive applicant at School A then she is not competitive at schools B-F either, and therefore should not apply to even ONE of the schools.</p>
<p>However, the top colleges keep reminding us that they get far more COMPETITIVE applicants every year than they can admit, so they end up making choices that are 'arbitrary' (i.e, random). </p>
<p>I think there is a human tendency to want to downplay randomness in all aspects of life- the stock market, the weather, our health and longevity, and college admissions. We can make reasonable predictions up to a certain extent, but we really can't predict the future as accurately as we think we can.</p>
<p>At 17, my daughter can hardly decide what outfit to wear on any given school day! She has applied to 6 schools and loved them all going into the process. Now she vacillates between having to get accepted at school A, B or C or die, and never being caught dead at school A, B or C. Eventually they have to make a decision. Look for more match and safety schools. Visit these schools again. Final decisions do have to made anytime soon. She may have a change of heart.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>If your child is not really a competitive applicant to School A, the same qualities will tend to make her a noncompetitive applicant to Schools B-F, too. (And vice versa.)<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>This doesn't always hold since any kid who got into H would get into Y and P. In reality, scoring acceptances from all three reaches is a pretty neat hat trick.</p>
<p>[D's experience: Acceptance to H, Rejection from Y, Waitlist from P]</p>
<p>Having said that: a true safety school is THE most important school to apply to, hands down. Playing the admissions game is fun knowing that there is a safety net underneath. Without the net, life get hairy. We are definitely playing the "Find the safety school first" game plan with D2. And we told her that she is not allowed to fall in love with any one school until the acceptances come in. Then she is allowed to fall in love with a school that has already decided to accept her.</p>
<p>I would read the descriptions of colleges in a book like Colleges that change lives--a lot of colleges are well known within their geographical locations, but not as well know outside. Colleges can have a super department in XXX that would make them good candidates for a student who wants to study XXX. Pass along any info about what your student is interested in, and perhaps the collective CC Borg mind can help.</p>
<p>There was a thread recently (within the past year) entitled "Brag about your lesser known school" . It was a great thread! I would look through that thread and see if there are some schools that might fit your bill.</p>
<p>I have known kids who did apply to a what I feel is a ridiculous number of schools, (over 20!) and they did get some surprises in admissions. One is at Colgate,and was rejected at a number of less selective schools; the other at Wesleyan and the same thing happened to him. Another got into Cornell after being rejected at every other reach school and match school. So the numbers do sometimes work out. However, I know many kids who were rejected from every single one of their reaches and even high matches. I think you can increase your chances by increasing the number of schools, but the increase is not going to be purely statistical, and just adding a couple more reaches is not going to bring up the chances much at all. You have to really pile it on like those kids I mentioned earlier, and you still have the risk of not getting into any onf them, and that risk is not small. </p>
<p>Try to find some popular match schools in your area. Do you know someone she likes and knows who has applied to such schools? Some of these kids need a little help to broaden their horizons a bit. I was fortunate in that my sons did not seem to take these things into consideration, and surprised so many kids did. However, I remember one young man who got into URichmond early, and that prompted several kids who knew him to check out that school and apply to it. A visit from a successful former student who is loving Hobart William Smith, brought interest to that school. </p>
<p>That is why some tours early on are useful. It plants the seed into some of these kids brains. They feel more familiar with certain schools. </p>
<p>I know friends whose kids go to Utah University (secondary campus not main) and University of Toledo as OOS students. Why on earth would a kid go to such school, and how did they hear about them, was my thought. Not that I know a thing about the schools and have anything against them, but I was curious how those schools got on those kids' radars. Well, they visited them for some other purpose, got familiar with them, and they were able to consider those schools. Very difficult for some kids to consider something they know nothing about.</p>
<p>Can some one define me what a "reach", "match", "safety" really mean now? </p>
<p>Yes, I understand them literally and in theory. But in reality ...
For example, my GAP, test scores etc all put me in the top 25-50% of the ivies, does that make it a reach or match to me? You can say it's a match; but the truth is, there are so many applicants are like you, definitely there are more qualified applicants than the spots, then that makes it to a "reach". </p>
<p>I totally agree with one of the poster's randomness. And that make this whole process so difficult and frustrating - you know you match these schools, intellectually, socially, and financially, but yet, they may very well be out of your reach.</p>
<p>I don't think standardized test scores should be used to determine where you stand with respect to a school. Try to 'holistically' evaluate your academic and extra-curricular activities. Better still, let someone else do that for you- hopefully you have a good guidance counselor who can analyze where you stand with respect to previous students from your school. That is the only way you can figure out whether a school is a match or a reach. The general consensus is that the most selective schools (like HYPS) are a reach for everyone.</p>
<p>I think you have to be clear that most people who occupy the bottom 50% stat-wise at the top schools have something else they brought to the table. (Sports, legacy, ECs on at least a statewide level). Our son's stats put him in the top 25% of applicants for Ivy league level colleges, but the only one that accepted him was the one where he was a legacy. That's much more common I think, than to be the one lucky person who gets into their reach.</p>
<p>Schools with select rates that are below 35% or so are reaches for most people even if they are in the upper 25% of the stats. These days the % have changed drastically, so even info just a few years old can be outdated. When we were looking at schools for my son, I was surprised at what the accept rates now were as compared to when my oldest was looking at colleges. For parents who have not really thought about colleges for many years and are now looking for their first child, there are some surprises in store.</p>
<p>If you look at where the kids with your profile at your school have been admitted in the last several years, it can give you a pretty good idea what is likely and what is not a likely accept. For instance, where we used to live, the GCs were pretty dead on about who was going to get into the flagship U. The gpa/test score combo was very consistent. The catholic schools I know also have a good idea where a student is likely to be admitted, and when it is a "Hail Mary" bid. It's when you apply off the beaten track, it becomes difficult to predict. We spent a lot of time at the two schools that were out of area. I wanted my son to know the schools well since he would be far away and because he had little feedback from peers about those schools. I wasn't as concerned about the nearby schools. It really helped for admissions as both schools took interest into consideration, and it made a difference in merit money today. We invested our time and money, and so they were willing to do the same. I doubt we would have had as smooth sailing if all we did was send off the apps and do a canned tour of the schools. That put high match, reach schools more in the likely range. </p>
<p>Though I hate test scores, they are useful to use to gauge where you stand, because most kids do not have some big hook. In that situation, you need to be aware that the lower quarter of kids, maybe more do have something that the school really wants, and that you need to be in the upper range. These is true especially for the more selective schools.</p>
<p>It might be easier to offer useful advice to the OP if her daughter's stats, interests & current choices along with likes & dislikes of certain schools were known.</p>
<p>I am hardly an expert, but I see no downside to applying to lots of reaches (as long as you can afford it). Only one school has to be a safety, as long as it is a school she would not mind attending, you can afford, and you are certain she can get in. Everything else can be a reach.</p>
<p>There is no reason to even consider schools that your D wouldn't be thrilled to attend. Take them off the list. You still have time before the application period ends. Apply to as many schools that she loves as possible. Come May, it should be VERY hard to choose between schools. I ended up attending a safety because I loved what it had to offer so much.</p>
<p>Queen's Mom: Typically, safeties are state schools which are being swamped with applications due to the economy. It is better to apply to at least two safeties since the traditional safeties are no longer safe bets.</p>
<p>Our kids college counselor was very patient helping us sort through the data on past year's admits so we'd understand how useless the aggregate numbers used by the colleges are. If you live in suburban Chicago or Boston or NY or DC or SF and you are applying to schools which are very popular in your area, ignore the school stats entirely. They will not be predictive for your kid. Your own HS's track record will be a much better set of data- and you will be shocked of course when you see those numbers!!</p>
<p>To the OP- I think you can help your kid right now unwind the mindset that it's reach or bust. For every "reachy" type of schools, there are a dozen places which are statistically less difficult to get into (for a kid like yours, in your geography, etc.) that have similar characteristics. Her job is to find those schools.</p>
<p>You should also consider the women's colleges which tend to be an admissions "bargain". We know women who were rejected at Amherst and Wiliiams who ended up happy at Mt Holyoke and Bryn Mawr; she should definitely check a few of these out while she's looking for another match and another safety.</p>
<p>Some sense of her interests and reaches will probably prompt a list of 30+ schools on this thread which are statistically easier to get into but similar to her reaches. Most of us here have been in your shoes- and are happy to help.</p>
<p>I think you are playing with fire if you allow her to add more reaches without bolstering her list from the bottom at the same time. While it is possible that come May she'd rather have no college to attend than go to one she dislikes, it's equally likely that once her friends start wearing their Tshirts this spring and planning little reunions at Thanksgiving, that she'll suffer huge remorse at not having anywhere to go.</p>
<p>It's also helpful to broaden the base a bit- talk to cousins, college roommates, friends who live in other parts of the country. I live in the Northeast; I frequently suggest Beloit or Lawrence as match/safeties for kids with Dartmouth, Williams, Middlebury, etc. at the top of their list. They think I'm nuts of course; my former college roommate lives in the upper midwest where kids routinely apply to Beloit, Macalester, St Olaf's, Lawrence, etc. as highly desireable LAC's. Kids here think Pomona is a flavor of iced tea; one tour of the website and they're hooked.</p>
<p>So get going!</p>
<p>Coldwind beat me to it. Sometimes schools that you consider safeties can throw you a curve. Best to have 2 safeties, just in case.</p>
<p>How to determine whether something is a reach, match or safety...</p>
<p>I would say that any school with an acceptance rate of under 20% is a reach for everyone. </p>
<p>A school with an acceptance rate of 20-40% is a match for anyone who scores in the top 25% of all applicants. </p>
<p>A school with an acceptance rate of 40% and greater is a safety for the top 25% of applicants.</p>
<p>Hoo boy.</p>
<p>I go off to get some exercise and my question yields a torrent of well-considered replies. Awesome! :)</p>
<p>OK. Here's the thing. Me, I'm a mature person with a lifetime of experience. <em>I</em> know she shouldn't turn her nose up at schools that would take her. <em>I</em> know that there are plenty of good schools out there. <em>I</em> don't get to decide, which is the problem.</p>
<p>We have visited eighteen schools. That's pretty much every reasonable thing within driving distance. This has helped her zero in on what she wants and doesn't want, thankfully. It's just that what she wants is incredibly hard to find and dovetails perfectly with the most selective schools in the country, unfortunately.</p>
<p>The other thing we are fighting is "college visit burnout." She says the last thing she wants to do is visit another school (and school plus essays are so time-consuming that I doubt we could do it anyway).</p>
<p>OK, some specifics. We are on the east coast. Financial aid is not an issue. She likes schools in suburban or urban, (but not too urban) places. She likes to see some racial diversity in the student body. Small schools in small towns are off the table. She wants something about 5000 students, so that rules out most state schools. If she can't get into a dream school, she wants something that would be "fun" and have athletics and school spirit, but she doesn't want to be surrounded by airheads. She has ruled out anything too far away, so that leaves the east coast and anything reachable in a day's drive (although she seems willing to deviate from this a bit). She does not wish to be snowbound. Texas, the southwest and the south are non-starters. No girls schools.</p>
<p>So yeah, she's got a problem. What schools fit that list of requirements, more or less? Mmmm, there's Duke. And Georgetown. Brown. Northwestern. See the problem? </p>
<p>She likes Bucknell, but I have a funny feeling she won't like it as much on a return visit as she did when she went there. Call it "mother's intuition." Which will leave Univ of MD (our state school) as a match and Univ of Charleston as a safety.</p>
<p>Anyway, if anyone can think of schools that come close to her list of requirements, shout out. Me, I've been suggesting Univ of Miami, USC, Univ of SF. No dice.</p>
<p>Oh, and the bit about living in my basement? That was supposed to be a joke! :)</p>
<p>[regarding Post 19 above by cptofhtehse]</p>
<p>Yeah, totally.</p>
<p>Here's what is happening with my daughter.</p>
<p>She sees classmates who are very different from her all excited about a school, and this turns her off to that school. All the blonde cheerleaders are applying to Vanderbilt and Wake Forest? Those schools are eliminated.</p>
<p>She hears that so-and-so who is just like her went to a college and hated it and is now transferring.</p>
<p>She hears some other college is so hard that someone smarter than her didn't do well.</p>
<p>When you add the rumor mill into all of the peer pressure, you get a kid wedded to some negative impressions of possibly suitable schools. When the school in question is already a question mark in her mind, it becomes a reject. Oy.</p>
<p>With SAT I scores of approximately 1300/1600, Duke, Brown & Northwestern are not realistic options as the 25th percentile of matriculated students is 1330/1600 for Brown, 1340/1600 for Duke & 1350/1600 for Northwestern with students scoring at or below those benchmarks probably have special status such as recruited athletes, URMs, legacies with substantial donor possibilities (development), or gifted students in music or acting programs, etc.
She didn't like Villanova, but likes Bucknell which is very unlike Brown. consider Vanderbilt University, although still a slight reach.</p>
<p>Conn College, Brandeis, Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore, Vassar, BC, Trinity, McGill, UVM. None are perfect but Northwestern isn't on the East coast so I think she's more flexible than you think.</p>
<p>Coldwind are those actual SAT scores?</p>
<p>OP- keep in mind that for both Brown and Northwestern the composite scores are a bit misleading. I have no data but much anecdotal information that for Brown at least, many of those composites are made up of Math 800 and verbal much lower scores, reflecting an aggressive effort to make the school more international. Lots of those international students would be scoring the equivalent of 1600's in their own countries (and they do) but their verbal SAT's are lowered by their not quite yet fluency in English. The chances of your typical American born, (not a migrant worker's kid) getting into Brown with 650 verbal, 670 math or thereabouts is extremely remote.</p>