Daughter wants to attend Art college....EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE

Paying for College
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***I finally did a little google on the school. From this Dec 2014 article it sounds as if they are having a hard time meeting the fed’s gainful employment ratio. If not in compliance by July 1, 2015 they won’t be eligible to receive payments though federal loan programs:

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2014/12/24/school-of-advertising-art-expects-graduation-rate.html****

I missed this earlier. Thanks for posting this link. A couple of telling points from the article.

"But one upcoming challenge will be getting in compliance with the new gainful employment regulations that were introduced nationally in the fall, Barry said.

Beginning July 1, for-profit colleges like SAA will need to make sure the annual loan payment of a typical graduate is less than 20 percent of his or her discretionary income, or they risk losing federal student aid."

Translation=Our graduates have a hard time finding a decent job that allows them to not spend a significant amount of their paycheck on the outrageous student debt they have.

AND THIS

“The school’s graduation rate should grow to 65 percent in May, Barry said”

Woah. 65%. GROW TO 65%. Meh.

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@maintainin if you daughter persists and is able to get approval for all the debt, if the school then loses it’s financial loan eligibility she just may have an out and get her loans forgiven. Perhaps you should put in a call to Ms. Berry or the Financial Aid director and see what the status is with their eligibility just in case your ex and daughter go ahead with their plan. Don’t take their word for it about fed. loan forgiveness, however - do the research to find out for sure what the situation would be in your daughter’s case. You may be able to contact someone at the D of Ed. about this or perhaps there is contact info. at www.studentloan.gov

And then, if you can get to the point where she wants to talk to you about her art and her dreams of becoming a graphic designer then please let her know about U of Cincinatti. DAAP is one of the best design schools around. If your daughter was an honors student and scored north of 25 on her ACT she has a decent chance of being admitted there. $11,000 per year for tuition from a real school and a rigorous program culminating in the bachelor of science degree would be hard to beat for an aspiring graphic designer. She can work on her art during a gap year (no college classes for credit she’ll want to preserve her “freshman” status so should do continuing ed for non credit only) and apply beginning this fall for early decision (entering fall 2016). I don’t think she needs a portfolio for admission - just good stats. Worth a shot.

Remember - you hold the Ace card. If you don’t fork over the dough without approving the institution there may not be much she can do and eventually she will need to get you on board to proceed with a college. You have more authority than you are thinking. Don’t give up - be gracious and above all let her know you care about her future!!!

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^^^Yeah. We’ll find out July 1 if the school can remain open. As I may have mentioned there was a “medical assistant” for profit school here in Richmond that closed it’s doors last year after failing to comply with federal loan rules. Students did not get their deposits or tuition back and still owe the loans they obtained!

I don’t understand the posts slamming you up thread a little. People often comment without bothering to digest the whole thread. Sometimes being a caring parent goes unrewarded FOR YEARS. I think bowing out until your opinion is valued is the right thing to do. :slight_smile:

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One can only hope Osprey. Considering most of the ridiculous amount she needs would be from private loans she(and whoever cosigned) wouldn’t be forgiven anyway.

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@maintainin sorry I didn’t realize they were private loans so I went back and reread the beginning of this thread to get clear on her situation. Did you know that your ex would have been approved to borrow a chunk of federal PLUS loans (probably for a lower rate than the private loans)? Can’t recall if that was discussed. Obviously she and Mike have declined on that option - did she tell you that? I realize your daughter is planning to do all this herself; however, she might be subjecting herself to a higher interest rate, foregoing the chance for her loans being wiped by the D of Ed. (because they are private not federal so she may not have the same protections in the event that school goes belly up or loses eligibility) and let’s face it - cosigning such a large amount is tantamount to paying at least a portion, right?

Sorry if this conversation was had in the beginning but if not you might ask your ex what happened to the 7.21% Plus Loans that should have been included in her daughter’s financial aid packet.

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@Mamelot, I think the idea is that @maintainin doesn’t want his daughter to have to shoulder ~$50k worth of loans for classes at a for profit school that won’t transfer to a traditional 4-year college. Even if the mom and stepdad take them out, the expectation would be for the daughter to pay them back. Giving his daughter’s mom suggestions for ways to help his daughter take on that kind of debt would be working against his goal, which is to prevent the loans in the first place.

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@Mamelot. Aren’t PLUS loans ones where the parent actually pays the loan? Pretty sure they aren’t willing to do that. I would entertain that thought…but I’m not going to with this school. I don’t want her going to this school. Period. It’s too much money for squat as @austinmshauri alluded to.

It’s actually 58k she would owe. The other 8k is just federal loans no one has to cosign for. And the expectation is for her to pay it all back. 58k + interest and fees. For an associates degree. Jesus Christ.

I would consider doing a plus loan for her if she would choose a goal that I find more reasonable. Depending on how much it was maybe. I probably couldn’t continue to pay her the support I said I would and do the loan though. I don’t think I could do both. It would have to be one or the other.

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Not the intent of my post, @austinshauri. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

Basically the mom is passing all of this off on her daughter (or maybe the daughter wants to be as financially as responsible as possible which is a commendable intent if not very wise in this particular case). They should have been offered a chunk in parent PLUS loans during the financial aid counseling (we, for instance, were “offered” $37,000 for this year alone which we declined). Did the ex even inform OP of that offer? Or did she present this as “this plan (i.e. private borrowing with OP being one of the cosigners, etc.) is the ONLY way for dear daughter to get to school”?

From what @maintainin is saying it might be a done deal. They aren’t listening to his advice I’m just thinking through things he can easily point out to keep the debt from going on the daughter herself. The practical outcome wouldn’t be different - parent is on the hook either way. Perhaps it can be a mantra the next time he receives a text: “What about those PLUS loans?”

And if I were OP I’d definitely be contacting the school and the D. of Ed. to find out what the situation would be for daughter’s federal loans. When we filled out the master promissory note this past weekend I noticed that there were specific instances in which a federal loan might be forgiven. It mentioned something about the school being a shady institution or something - not sure if SAA qualifies but worth checking out. For his daughter’s sake. It is NOT enabling her it’s just being a resource if she messes things up.

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@maintainin just to be crystal clear: Ex would have been offered the PLUS loans Not you. It was Ex’s financial data on the FAFSA right? Did they ask you to provide any income or asset info?

Ex would have been offered the PLUS loans and for some reason Ex neglected to mention this to you. Interesting. I’d just shoot back questions on that. Ask to see the financial aid packet too. Doesn’t mean you are budging an inch. You are just buying time for yourself and your daughter w/o getting into an argument.

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No one has mentioned PLUS loans to me.

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Did they do the finaid apps? And nothing was offered?

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@mamelot. I have not been asked to fill out any paperwork. Obviously she’s expecting most of my daughters tuition to be cosigned for and hope for the best. Which is an unbelievably bad idea.

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@maintainin I’d definitely ask that question the next time. Get them to send you the financial aid letter - all schools need to issue one whenever financial aid is offered. Did they not file a FAFSA or apply for financial aid?

Look, you want to buy some time in case this place isn’t eligible come July 1. Then it may be a moot point.

And at the very least if they didn’t bother filing a FAFSA then I’d be like “before a single discussion continues you will need to apply for federal aid and get your eligibility determined.” Much better than just saying “no”. Again, buys you time. I mean seriously - what if she never filed FAFSA but actually would be eligible for grants if she had? Doesn’t matter for this school but it just might for another.

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Work a year & apply to Mason Gross School of the Arts.

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I see what you’re saying, @Mamelot. Buying time is a good idea. I didn’t realize families of students at for profit schools would have access to PLUS loans or that PELL grants and the federal student loans could be used to pay for those types of schools. It would be interesting to see what the financial aid letter says.

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This has already been asked more than once…but I’ll ask…again.

Does this daughter have any kid of portfolio of her excellent work? Has she done any graphic design on a volunteer basis? Is she a talented artist?

In other words, what skill set does she have?

Did she have decent HS grades and a decent SAT or ACT score?

Maybe this is the only school because she really doesn’t have what it takes to get accepted anywhere else.

And if that is the case, she would be wise to take a year to build up her credentials.

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@thumper1 it’s a valid question that OP should be asking once he and his daughter can get past this current crisis.

@austinmshauri and @maintainin, per the financial aid page on the SAA website they maintain that students DO have access to the federal financial aid program. That is what may be in jeopardy if they don’t get their grad. rate and job placement #'s up.

According to the website students need to file FAFSA prior to July 15, 2015. It’s required that an accepted student meet with the financial aid counsellor first and bring along Tax returns and W2’s etc. (if the student is a dependent they would need to see parent’s tax returns). that must be the meeting that started this whole thing off.

Just so you know, @maintainin, most schools work right off the FAFSA which is typically filed first before any meeting with Financial Aid. The FAFSA takes in all the necessary income and asset information of the student and, if a dependent, the student’s parent(s) or guardian. The FAFSA then calculates the expected family contribution (EFC) for purposes of granting any financial aid. (Financial aid comes in the form of federal grants, federal loans, institutional grants if available, and of course outside assistance such as private scholarships, loans, etc.). Anyway, there is usually no need to meet with financial aid till you’ve filed your FAFSA and received your award letter. If the FAFSA was filed using estimated #'s (i.e. before the tax return is filed and/or before receiving the W2) then the financial aid office may need to see tax returns and/or w2’s once available to get an accurate understanding of what the actual EFC will be (the student can also update all the FAFSA info. online once the tax return is actually filed). Many financial aid offices need to send award letters by March or April to give students enough time to make a decision before May 1. However, in your daughter’s case everything happened after April 15 so she should have been told to file a FAFSA immediately. Was she? That’s an important question that speaks to the integrity of that financial aid office.

Maybe the type of student that they get is a non-traditional one so they need to have that meeting to convey the steps (file the FAFSA, etc.) and they would also be able to do their own calculations of the expected family contribution by looking at your documents directly so it’s not exactly “shady” that they had that meeting before she had filed the FAFSA. Still, it seems a bit irregular to me that they insist a meeting take place first. Especially if your daughter and ex didn’t mention FAFSA, stafford loans, grants, etc. it may well be that they have chosen (or were told) to skip this step. Highly irregular. Stafford loans are at 4.66% and the student can borrow up to $5,500 per year (unsubsidized) or $3,600 (I think) per year subsidized if they qualify. @mom2collegekids was posting earlier about all this - remember she said it was possible your daughter also had federal loans she wasn’t telling you about?

At any rate I’d make sure daughter and ex divulged EVERYTHING about what loans she is planning to take out - federal, private, etc. Don’t take their answers on face value - even if you aren’t contributing anything (and you should definitely NOT deviate from that stance) you should still ask for this information because my guess is that they think you are totally ignorant of how it all works. Once you start asking the questions that might change the game a bit. Ask to see the award letter that SAA should have sent them. If there isn’t one, ask when it’s forthcoming and also then ask to see the FAFSA that they should have filed and the EFC that the FAFSA spit out. Ex probably won’t divulge her financial info. to you but you should at least get the EFC. They are asking for your guarantee - you have a right to understand the full financial process they are undertaking. You won’t regret it. Because should your daughter be saved from this harebrained scheme she will likely need some intelligent guidance on the financial aid side.

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Either parent, or even a stepparent, can apply for a Plus loan.

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For three of my D’s schools that accepted her we were offered PLUS loans. The one she’s enrolling at offered us about $37,000 for her first year just in PLUS loans. I was assuming that meant we were approved for them and just needed to accept or decline (we declined). But a couple of other schools did not include PLUS loans on the financial aid award so perhaps in that case should we have desired them we would have needed to apply through the school’s financial aid office. Have no idea why one school would include PLUS loans and other school wouldn’t.

But in any case I don’t like the idea of a school saying the first step is “talk to us”. No, actually the first step should be file the FAFSA so you know your EFC. All financial aid offices are willing to help answer your questions and advise you on the process. They can be genuinely helpful and informative that way. But If a school needs to “talk to you” first and look over your tax returns and W2’s before you even file - well, who knows what sort of advice they are giving out? The motivation to somehow trick an unwary student and her family into scamming the system wouldn’t be exactly low. Anything to bring in those tuition dollars. And some of these families may not have the sophistication to catch on - to them this “expert” is being so nice and helpful. Problem is, at the end of the day it’s the student and the family who are 100% responsible for those documents and it’s they - and not the financial aid office - who will experience any adverse financial or legal consequences.

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You would have still had to apply, and qualify, for the PLUS loans that were included in the packet. It wasn’t really an offer, just a suggestion of a way to pay for college. You have to qualify for a Plus, but it’s not hard - no credit delinquency in the past 90 days, no bankruptcy in the last 5 years, no default on certain federal loans.