<p>I'd like to put a word in for nurses who choose to remain at the hospital bedside. This is by no means scut work, or beneath a particular intelligence level. More than any other point of care, quick-acting critical thinking skills are required. I've worked with some wonderful RNs, and some who just get through their shifts. It can be quite rewarding to know you're one of the good ones, that you've given the type of care you would want your family members to receive, and to have your patients recognize that. There are always new things to learn, from nursing research to medical breakthroughs. The one down side is the constant battle with management to do more with less. When I started twenty years ago nursing management fought the fight to increase staffing, now the reverse is true. Nursing managers are under the fiscal gun. That's a very tough job I wouldn't want any part of myself.</p>
<p>One other word of advice (and I am playing devil's advocate here). You may hear from others that the best route is the obtain a 2 yr associate degree and then practice an an RN. Depending upon the place of employment, there is no differnce in salary between and 2 yr and 4 yr grad. Both have the same responsibilities and take the same license exam. Once you are employed, then you can take advantage of tuition reimbursement and go back for the BSN degree. It can be cheaper doing it this way in the long run.</p>
<p>But.... I don't necessarily share this view. In today's world with tight budgets at hospitals, tuition reimbursement is not all that great. I know many nurses trying this route and it is taking them a long time and much of it is coming out of their own pocket. It is stressful to be working full-time (which you have to do to get the tuition reimbursement) plus go to school, pay bills, take care of family, etc.....</p>
<p>If you can, I always advocate going to school and getting the BSN to start with. Many jobs require a BSN (management, sales, some research, etc.) If life gets in the way and you can't get back to school for another degree, then your options may be limited with an associate degree. I do know many 2 yr grads that are happily practicing and practicing in a variety of areas. But many of them are also going back to school to try to advance.</p>
<p>MomOFour -- You are absolutely right. I hope you didn't think that my comment about my daughter already thinking about master's degrees was in any way a denigration of a hospital bedside nurse. So many exciting areas to be in there as well -- emergency care, cardiac, etc.
Also, think about excellent flexibility when one wants to start a family. Very easy to drop down part time or to certify as a school nurse and work only the nine months your own kids are in school.</p>
<p>Great to read all of the positive messages. My D is in her first year at CC with a plan to transfer to UW-Madison for their nursing program. Her career goal is to become a NP and midwife. One of her frustrations is being constantly told by well-meaning, mostly professional women that "she should be a doctor instead". I'm now used to hearing her strongly worded responses in these situations. It is too bad that the nursing profession isn't always given the respect it deserves.</p>
<p>I remember teaching a class to post-mastectomy women re: options for breast reconstruction. Afterwards, there was always some well-meaning well-educated woman who would ask me why didn't I go into medicine. I tried to make them see that an MD wouldn't be doing the things I was doing. Never sure if I made my point...
For the past ten years, I've been doing school nursing. It's not all bandaids and tummy aches. At my school, we've recently admitted a child who requires mechanical ventilation via a tracheostomy. My MSN in Acute Care from Columbia is coming in handy!
PS The Columbia program is stronger than ever, Bethie. I believe they just graduated their 2nd or 3rd class of DNSc - Doctor of Nursing Science- only program of its kind in the country. Wonderful opportunities in that school and fantastic scholarships as well! (Believe me, I get the info - and the requests - ALL the time. (Although I will admit, Penn is rated #1.)</p>
<p>My wife teaches at a central PA BSN program. She sees a good number of students who went thru top-notch LACs ($$$$ for a fancy-named school on the back window of the family car), could only find a job that, really, any high school kid could do, in her class. They make great nurses, but why not take a more direct and less costly path. Also look at Hopkins and Georgetown, or 3'2 programs where you begin in one school and end up doing the last 2 years in a BSN program. Hopkins has this arrangement with a number of LACs.
We were encouraging my S to get a BSN, but after he did a stint in ICU, he decided that it was not for him. But while we were looking the question came up, where should he go. If you can afford Penn, etc., great, but if the wealth is finite, a graduate of, say, York College, PA will do just as fine, and there is then money left to get your MSN, MSN/MBA, MSN/JD. PhD (acute shortage of nursing professors - by the way, great vacation time in the academy.
There is a staus stigma with nursing programs (I hear it at my LAC); it is unwarrented and ignorant. Hats off to those universities like Penn and Hopkins that have retained nursing, unlike Syracuse (done in by their female President) and Boston University. By the way, depending on what hours you work, some nurses make more than new GP's.</p>
<p>ChiDad- so happy to hear about another future nurse. I trained in the dark ages-35 years ago in a hospital school of nursing. Student nurses were expected to stand up when an (male of course) MD entered the nursing station. We've come a long way, but are still the objects of alot of stereotypes.
dbwes and ChiDad- I eventually got my MS in nursing, but never strayed far from hospital nursing. (Except-yes, a school nurse when my kids where young. That was lots of fun and never had to worry about childcare during snow days!) During my time working in hospitals, I was a member of a hospital wide ethics committee, taught classes for parents of newly diagnosed diabetics and co-led a class/support group for corrections officersdealing with prisoners with AIDs. . I bet none of the people who have made comments to dbwes daughter has a clue this is what nurses do.
Finally, as corny as it may be- I have learned so much from the patients and families who have allowed me into their lives. I have met people of all ages, nationalities, every walk of life and been touched by their strength, determination and spirit. I think of many decades after caring for them.</p>
<p>Oh second spring - not corny at all!! Those patients and families have enriched my life so much over the years. I sometimes feel sorry that my H doesn't have those kinds of feelings in his line of work. On the other, he feels sorry for me because I don't get his paycheck - but it's getting better all the time!
From another nurse who graduated way back when - I actually wore some little white cap for a while. YIKES!!</p>
<p>First of all, having a nursing background would give her a huge edge applying to med school, so it's not like choosing to study nursing at this point would hurt her if she decides later she wants to pursue medicine. Most people who apply with stats like hers are lacking in the patient care area. </p>
<p>As for the study of nursing itself, I do think you can make it intellectually demanding if you choose to. One of the lecturers at the medical school I work at is a nurse and has a PhD in physiology. </p>
<p>I'm not too familiar with the nursing requirements, but I would suggest that she studies nursing (say at UPenn like it was suggested) but also take the premed requirements. Then, if at some point she decides she doesn't like it, she can always pursue a PhD in a medical-related field and/or medicine.</p>
<p>I have been a nurse for going on 32 years now..all at the bedside in an ICU. The pay is great, it has afforded me great flexiblity in raising my family, I love the comraderie and friendship with my co-workers, genuinely enoy taking care of my patients yet I discouraged my daughter from pursuing nursing.
Why???? I and some of my coworkers feel like a Dr's servent at times, like we as nurses don't matter. Excuse me or I am sorry is not part of the MD's vocabulary. We have no healthcare once we retire ( non union), pension plan leaves quite a bit to be desired. If an RN stays at the bedside, all those years of working weekends and holidays will start to wear you down... I am sorry if I sound bitter, I'm really not ,I have always been proud to be an RN as were my parents proud that I became an RN</p>
<p>As far as choice of schools goes, a BSN is definitely preferred but as to what college..it really doesn't make any difference. Some colleges esp the associated programs at comm colleges you take the liberal arts at first and if your grades measure up against the other wanna be nursing students you get to take the nursing courses otherwise you are SOL</p>
<p>Agree with goingtobebroke--being a nurse has given me a fulfilling career, always changing, always challenging. When my children were young I had alot of flexibility with my schedule so I could have lots of time.</p>
<p>I still give direct care and am making 135k per year plus full benefits, pension</p>
<p>Re: 'the little white cap': I am old enough to have friends who's main criteria for choosing a particular nursing school was how cute the cap was!</p>
<p>I assume those days are long gone.</p>
<p>
[quote]
acute shortage of nursing professors
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Money could solve that. My neighbor has a kid in a school that had 3 nursing professor openings for which she qualified. Taking into account the salary they would offer, plus the tuition benefit for her kid, she was still better off remaining in her current employment.</p>
<p>How would you nurses characterize the nursing curriculum vrs. say a biology major?</p>
<p>There are so many different types of nursing programs out there so a little research is required. Some of the options:</p>
<p>4 year BSN programs - admitted as a freshman
UPenn, UMich, Boston College, NYU, Georgetown
UPenn offers sub-matriculation into Masters degree so you can earn double credits for some coursework and get a jump start on graduate work</p>
<p>Nursing school but related degrees like International Health:
Georgetown (nice appeal if you aren't sure you want to be a traditional nurse)</p>
<p>2 year BSN programs with applications for Jr year:
Emory</p>
<p>2/3 MSN program - 5 years but graduate with MSN (nurse practioner): Vanderbilt</p>
<p>3/2 program (Liberal Arts/Nursing)- start undergrad at one school then complete 2 years nursing at another: Wheaton College (has deal with Vanderbilt, Emory, Case Western, Johns Hopkins)</p>
<p>2nd degree masters - for those who have a first degree in another field (bridge programs):
Michigan, Penn, Columbia - lots of schools!</p>
<p>Many of the universities that used to have undergrad programs now only offer masters - Columbia, Cornell, Vanderbilt</p>
<p>In the end my daughter decided that she wanted a school where she would start in nursing right away - she went with the understanding that if she found out that nursing was not a fit she could transfer to another major. As we live abroad she had not had opportunities to work or volunteer in the health care field so had very little experience. She was very interested in Georgetown's International Health program but it's a very small program (30 admitted) and she ended up on the wait list.<br>
During her first semester at Penn in her Intro to Nursing class everyone gets to shadow a nurse for a day That experience helped confirm that she was in the right program.</p>
<p>RE: Science requirements
At CWRU School of nursing , we took Anatomy with the med students
In addition, our first year curriculum included biochem, immunology, pharmacology, pathophysiology</p>
<p>My wife is a hospice nurse. She wanted to be a nurse, not a doctor's assistant. She wanted to work directly with patients AND with their families. She provides treatment plans and recommendations to the docs, usually over the phone, and for the most part they rubberstamp them.</p>
<p>She has an AA degree. Admissions to her 2-year program are significantly more difficult than getting into any 4-year BSN program I know of, including Penn (under 10% admitted, solely on the basis of college pre-req courses). In fact, the rejects from her program often end up in the 4-year program at UW.</p>
<p>Very interesting conversation here - </p>
<p>To the OP - your daughter sounds wonderful and goal minded.</p>
<p>My daughter broke the news last summer about her desire to pursue Nursing - her ultimate goal is to be a Nurse practitioner.</p>
<p>We have been looking at BSN programs - and we have found they are not all equal. In some BSN programs the students take Nursing classes right away as freshmen and in others you take two years of liberal arts and your sciences then apply to the Nursing program as a junior and finally get to take a Nursing class.
She and I both wanted the former. In all the schools she applied to (6) she will be exposed to Nursing as a career and practice as a freshman.</p>
<p>She applied to one school with an AA in Nursing and a BSN - the kids basically get their AA/RN after two year then spend the last two years getting their BSN. She likes this idea because she can work summers and part time per diem as an RN while getting her BSN. Working in college is a requirement for my kids for financial reasons - this seems like a better option than Starbucks.</p>
<p>Note - the Nursing school programs that are ranked by USNews - it is the Graduate schools that are ranked - not the undergrad program.</p>
<p>I have also found that the Directors of nursing at most of the schools are very willing to talk and sell you their program - they are looking for top students! </p>
<p>One more things - at a regular visit with her specialist physician (one who has seen her through 3 years of health problems) told her right now the very "best" program to get into is a Nurse Anesthetist. Very high demand right now - excellent pay.</p>
<p>just went back and reread the op....</p>
<p>difference between nursing and pre med - IMO ... money and time. Don't know what her ultimate goal is but she can be a nurse practitioner in 6 years. much longer for a physician.</p>
<p>her intellect and skills won't be wasted. Many many nurses are very bright individuals and their are many levels of a nursing career.</p>
<p>East Coast - U Penn, Johns Hopkins, Pitt., VCU Many good schools in Boston - </p>
<p>We looked at school and the hospitals they used for clinical. My dau didn't have a chance at J Hopkins - but she is applying to a school that uses that hospital in the clinicals.</p>
<p>I don't know if there is any evidence that nursing programs with excellent grad programs also have the "best" BSN programs. If she has a idea of a specialty - see where the grad programs are and where they draw from.</p>
<p>Physicians and nurses are different in their patient care outlooks, totally different fields so it is not surprising to like one and not the other; there are also many different types of nursing. There are many different colleges offering nursing- consider where she wants to work eventually, she will have to pass her nursing boards in that state. Do not think the "best", think best fit for college, just like any other major. Consider family finances as well. And, of course, get the BSN, not just the RN. After a few years of working it will not matter where she got her nursing training so be sure she goes to the college with all the other best fit aspects- a full college experience, not just the nursing school. Good luck to her.</p>
<p>Just read the above post- all the nursing specialties are still nursing, they are not substitutes for physicians although the NP's may be used as physician extenders. Premed is the intention to go to medical school, the required science courses for medical school are not even the same as those required for nursing. Going into nursing is a conscience choice, not a substitute for becoming a physician, different personalities are required for success in each field.</p>
<p>I don't know much about nursing, but with your daughter's ACT score, she would probably qualify for a full-tuition scholarship at the University of Pittsburgh and maybe a nursing scholarship also. The Pitt nursing program is supposed to be top-notch. My daughter is a Pitt freshman, and one of her friends is studying to be a nurse. D says that the workload is rough, but that the nursing students have a study group, and they get together in the dorm lounge to review together. I know that the Pitt medical center has a great reputation, with many cutting-edge treatments developed there.</p>