Dear colleges, You have priced the middle/upper of the middle class out, so...

<p>Why full professors? This designation just means they’ve jumped through every hoop their department and institution has set for them. Or did you mean as opposed to grad students?</p>

<p>I am not a full professor because at my school this means doing endless hours of committee work. That is really a “all who enter abandon hope” kind of busy work with no payoff except promotion and the little monies that come with it.</p>

<p>@SAY: I see your point, but I don’t agree with how you’re deciding whether or not work is relevant to undergrads. If the linguistics department disappears that is very important to a kid who wants to study linguistics. The grants are necessary to fund the department so it stays functional.</p>

<p>And LAC’s, which are as expensive as research institutions if not more so, have teaching undergrads their only business.</p>

<p>Both my kids attended LAC’s and the profs are very hardworking.</p>

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<p>But where are these privates which award a lot of merit aid, and are a better deal than some publics? Awful hard to find them! … But I’ll keep looking.</p>

<p>^^^^^ Don’t reinvent the wheel; use the search function. There are many threads about this. Curmudgeon was especially helpful in this regard. His D attended Rhodes.</p>

<p>Coming late to this thread and I haven’t read much of it so excuse me if I repeat what has already been said. As a graduate of two state universities, Rutgers and UNC, and as an employee of another, I have little patience with people who whine that the costs of state schools are too high. You know why they are too high? It’s because those that have the money prefer to buy overpriced cars and houses and starve their public colleges. If you want decent, affordable public education you have to pay for it with your taxes. My employer only receives 18% of their budget from the state. Tuition is going up as the amount of state support is going down. Employees salaries are being cut for the second year. You get what you pay for. So shut up and pay your taxes.</p>

<p>In response to some that I offended:</p>

<p>On many of the CC threads there are those that talk about URMs and the poor people taking your kids spot at elite campus’. The theory that many of you have is that these schools do so in order to create diversity. I have heard it often so I wanted to put out the real truth about financial aid…there are many middle income people receiving lots of financial aid especially those of us with multiple children attending college at the same time. Are we poor? We are not poor but for whatever the reasons may be, we could not afford these schools if it was not for the financial aid that these schools have been generous enough to contribute to our children, and we are forever grateful to the generous alumni. </p>

<p>I also said that those who cry with a loaf of bread under one arm have no idea what it is to need yet they complain that the cost of college is out of control for them. On campus’ throughout the country there are kids who are struggling financially to stay at their schools and many are working many hours if not full time to remain in school. This happens at even the top schools in this country.</p>

<p>I live in a community where my neighbors would never think that my kids are receiving any aid and I have heard them talk about financial aid kids as being the poor kids who take away the spots of their children. The same children that vacation several times a year at their second homes around the globe. The same kids who need multiple tutors to check their work before they hand it in, and the same kids who think they are entitled to attend these schools because mom and dad told them they were. These kids that I am talking about attend some of the best private schools in the state, while others are at some of the best boarding schools. These same kids work very hard academically but there is an attitude about many of them that because they have had these advantages that makes them entitled to the top schools. Heck, their parents have been paying hefty tuition for the private schools they have been attending so why would they think anything less for college. Most of these schools have councelors employed specially to work with the kids during the application process just to ensure that their students will make a good showing at the top schools. How else would they sell their school if they did’nt have top schools to flaunt to perspective parents who want their child in their school. </p>

<p>When my first son was admitted to MIT, I remember some members of my community wondering what or how he managed that. When sons 2 and 3 were admitted to Cornell the following year, I again received the same type of questions. My husband and I are very low key in my town. We are way too busy doing our own thing and worrying about our life to pay attention to the trivial bull^$%* of our neighbors. It became evident that we were the talk of many because we had the modest home and did our own lawn work and cleaned and painted our own house. Our cars are old and we don’t travel on school holidays to wonderful destinations. That was our lifestyle prior to my husbands job lose but life happened, and we had to make adjustments. Our kids education was always our priorty because my husband and myself did not have that growing up, and we wanted our kids to have the opportunities that we did’nt have. We viewed education as the ticket to opportunities that we did’nt have until retirement. We both attended college, but neither of us could have dreamed of what my first three kids have right now. My kids grew up during our lean years so they did not benefit from our better times. They did however benefit greatly from our years of financial struggle because that was when our life became emersed in our family. We searched for every free event and museum we could take our four kids to. We hiked and camped and grew our own veggies and we read lots of books…lots and lots of books. We bought a microscope and would spend hours looking at the samples we took on our hikes under the lens. This is how my kids grew up…simple and without the paid for enrichment of the kids around them. Our house was the gathering place for the other kids because we did all the fun stuff that their parents would never think of. The things we did were free or really inexpensive. We would help out with local charities on Saturday mornings and our kids ran in the community or county sponsered events. They built their own forts in the backyard sometimes to the horror of my neighbors. They became familar with tools and used books as their guide to make interesting structures. When they raked our lawn, the neighbor kids would stand around them and ask to help because they thought it looked like fun. We bought some extra rakes that fall. You see, there is no secret to college admissions and much to the surprise of many the largest factor in college admission is to really enjoy learning. If a child is curious, which most are until schools and parents dull it, than a child will blossom into a well rounded and creative adult. Nature was my childrens teacher and that did not cost us anything. So the next time people look at the URM’s and the kids receiving full aid don’t think for a minute that these kids do not belong at the top schools, they just got there differently than your kids did. Nobody knows what goes on in other peoples home even in the best of neighborhoods there are people struggling in this economy. Some of us have been lucky to hold on while others have not. I do thank God for our good fortune in being able to keep our home because our business depends on the very same people who wonder how our kids did it. </p>

<p>I did not mean to say that because people are wealthy their kids are spoiled brats but many of the people in my community are spoiled. They are spoiled because they forgot where they came from and they forgot that not everyone is or was so fortunate to have the opportunities they have had. I remind my kids all the time that I sent them to these schools so that they could continue to pay forward what they have been so blessed to receive. They have not disappointed me. If I came across as anything less than grateful than I need to be forgiven for my inability to articulate my ideas. </p>

<p>There was a poster that did not understand my post regarding what I said about my daughters high tuition at her first school. I did not expect her school to contribute more aid. I was happy that my daughter had the opportunity to attend that school and we took out equity on our home to see her attend. That situation did not work out for daughter with great sadness for all of us. The point that I was making regarding her school not giving her the financial aid that MIT and Cornell provided for our sons was that we were willing to have her attend her dream school even though it was a hardship to our family. We would have made it work if our daughter was able to succeed there. That was our choice to invest in her but it just did’nt work out. Now we are paying that money back slowly and my daughter is home and commuting to the state school. </p>

<p>Our life isn’t perfect and many times I would say that is has its share of sadness. We have had health issues, both my son and myself, and mental health issues with my daughter. The moral of the story is that we all do our best. I do not fault people who make choices to send their children to less expensive schools because I don’t know what is going on in their home, but I do get disgusted when people who have so much forget that the rest of the world may not be that fortunate. </p>

<p>As a side note…the people that I thank the most for teaching me how to make the most for my children are the Chinese immigrants in my community. They work effortlessly to provide the opportunities for their children to succeed. I did many things differently with my own kids but I learned so much from seeing how they do things. </p>

<p>I hope this post clarified my thoughts some what better than before. I am not a great communicator of my thoughts so I forget that you don’t know me.</p>

<p>Everybody seems to care very much what others think of them, why? Let them think whatever and have fun with it. Why to be offended with others opinions, they have right to have one and you should have your peace of mind, why to be bothered? It is actually fun to watch how people get hyped up about something that is not their business at all, so enjoy, have a laugh, drink to it!</p>

<p>That is true Miami. I never realized how many people were watching us until my second and third kid went off to college. People thought we had some kind of magic method to college admissions. We did’nt, in fact we knew very little but our kids had what these schools wanted. Believe me we were surprised because we never imagined that our kids would have had these opportunities. I am so grateful and I hope some people will see the point of my post.</p>

<p>"mythmom are you going to argue that top professors at the top colleges that are being discussed on CC typically spend 12 hrs on weekends grading papers. The most famous of these profs at many school barely teach at all. This is not a secret. Sure the lower level non-tenured “teachers” work much harder but then no one is going to the school because of them. "</p>

<p>Top professors got their fame and prominent positions and maintain them by working hard. Only thing is that at top research universities like the Ivies, research/publications is what gets them tenure and promotions so that’s where they allocate the lion’s share of their worktime. Research is also an important part of how they are ranked in various university ranking guides and especially within academia. </p>

<p>Undergraduate teaching with few exceptions is considered by many top Profs to be a chore which must be done…not the primary duty. Not to say that they don’t necessarily like undergraduate teaching or deliberately want to give it second shrift, but that’s not how the system at research 1 universities like the Ivies work for the most part. According to friends who attended Ivy undergrad and my own experience taking a few Ivy courses, the quality of teaching and attitude of Prof toward undergrads can be quite variable…one Prof even made it a point to run off as soon as lecture was over and told us to direct all questions to the TFs. :lol</p>

<p>If undergraduate teaching is your yardstick for judging the quality of undergraduate programs, I’d recommend looking into SLACs instead as those institutions do prioritize teaching quality along with research when deciding who gets tenure and promoted. There was a reason why so many high school classmates who attended Ivies for undergrad were holding protests about the quality of undergrad teaching when we were college students.</p>

<p>momma-three I live in a very affluent area of CA and your story sounds hard to believe. For the last time stop the nonsense about the three houses and trips to Spain for the weekend. While there are undoubtly a few people like that they are few indeed. Families in the real world making well over 250k don’t have second or third houses and don’t fky off to Europe at a moments notice. For them despite a good income the costs of college are very significant. The point that seems lost here is that college is just the beginning, and many of the kids will go on to professional school that costs even more. Since you constantly keep talking about your husband loss of his job I can’t help but wonder why this is relevant. I don’t want to be mean but we all have our problems. My wife developed breast cancer six years ago and then had a cognitive deficit from the chemo and could no longer work at her previous high level. So are you saying that the colleges are supposed to make up for your husbands lack of a job with FA? This is what I mean by social justice. I’m sorry your husband lost his job but why should the system in essence reward him for this with financial aid money. According to you he was out of work for years. Now I don’t want to get overly personal but you are the one telling your personal story on the thread.</p>

<p>No cobrat it’s my yardstick about the cost. Your post supports exactly what I have been saying. The cost of the undergraduate education is way overpriced and almost completely unrelated to the value of the education. Why does the degree from a third rate college that is almost worthless in the job marketplace cost the same as a degree from a top ten school?</p>

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A qualified yes. Several variables come into play, so perhaps “top faculty” would be more accurate. (Now there’s a subjective hornet’s nest! <smile>) I also didn’t intend to universally disparage the teaching abilities of grad students, and for that I apologize. Clearly not expressing myself too well in this one.</smile></p>

<p>Like many others (including my children), the ideal school resides in my mind. Haven’t found it elsewhere yet, so it’s a matter of discovering which school comes closest within the range of affordability. In life, there are trade-offs. Some decisions are tougher than others. It’s been my experience that the ability to roll with the punches is enhanced by a sense of humor and inclination to view the glass as half full. :-)</p>

<p>loveday2: I didn’t mean to jump on that. Not important. (I don’t mean to disparage you by that. Just to say I could have inferred what you meant.)</p>

<p>SAY: Well, even a third rate school can get a child accepted to a worthy med/law/grad school or job, so I suppose for many the outcome is the same as a degree from a “worthier” institution. And if the child succeeds more readily than at a large state school, the school may just be worth the money.</p>

<p>I think kids have many tasks in college beyond the mere intellectual. My S had a lot of growing up to do. Sometimes I thought the very competitive (not cutthroat but massive grade deflation) environment of his school was a liability for him and I wished he had chosen a less demanding option. He loved the school, and besides one or two poor grades, did flourish there.</p>

<p>My D was fortunate enough to find the perfect school for her and the faculty was very, very professional and committed.</p>

<p>As a parent of a current freshmen,with another close behind, i believe you owe your child the best education you can afford,period…Having attended a CC and then state schools,my personal experience is that top schools, and flagship state schools are significantly better then CC and 3rd rate state schools…Does this mean you should go into 6 figure debt to go to the better schools? NO,but every effort should be made to find a way to pay for the best education possible…I am a firm believer that in the not too distant future many of these 3rd rate schools will disappear,as even the lower cost of attendance can’t justify the degree you earn and subsequent salary from a job…College is NOT for everyone,but the media and schools will have you believe that…</p>

<p>"College is NOT for everyone,but the media and schools will have you believe that… "</p>

<p>-one more reason to believe and trust yourself and forget about others. </p>

<p>D. has saved so much energy for not worrying about ranking, opinion of others or whatever. Did not get into first choice, went to #2 with the smile, did her best and is ready to go off to Med. School next year, still completely oblivious to all hype about “best” schools …etc. She is content with choices that she has and her most important criteria was to be within 4.5 hours driving from home. For UG it was about 3.5 hrs. She did not apply to any school outside of this radius. Whatever makes them happy, cannot please everybody.</p>

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<p>Not really. With a few rare exceptions such as Rice (which offers a top education at a significantly lower price than its peer schools), on retail face value it seems that private schools compete on features offered but not on price. But in reality they do compete on price by offering discounts and rebates - in collegespeak called “merit aid.”</p>

<p>The very high-end schools do not offer merit aid, but they still commonly discount the price with enhanced need-based aid. And many of these do compete with each other to offer the most generous need-based aid, in other words, the biggest discounts.</p>

<p>So do private colleges compete on price? Not on sticker price, but certainly on actual price.</p>

<p>^^^^^The kid is the cake – the school just the cherry. The person getting the education is always the more important part of the equation. Your D chose a situation she was comfortable in, excelled, and is ready to apply herself to the next challenge, and a very challenging challenge it is, too.</p>

<p>Good for her.</p>

<p>I agree with your reasoning.</p>

<p>“Haven’t you ever wondered why Gettysburg College costs the same as Williams or De Paul the same as Yale?”</p>

<p>Because that’s what the market will bear. You don’t need collusion when you have an agreed-upon hierarchy. HYP moves, the rest arrange themselves in response according to whether or not they think they can get away with that kind of price.</p>

<p>There are lots of lists showing “best college bargains” and so on. You can find them based on sticker price, and you can find them based on merit aid. Here’s one list of the best bargains in public 4-year colleges, ranked by out-of-state value:</p>

<p>[Kiplinger.com](<a href=“http://content.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/pubcollege.php?sortby=OUTRANK&orderby=flip&states]Kiplinger.com[/url][]=ALL&myschool[]=none&outputby=table”>http://content.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/pubcollege.php?sortby=OUTRANK&orderby=flip&states)=ALL&myschool=none&outputby=table</a></p>

<p>As you can see, there are some public schools (like Berkeley) that have priced themselves like Yale for out-of-staters. Many others, including strong state flagships like SUNY Geneseo, LSU, Minnesota, Oklahoma, etc. cost half that much or even less…and that’s before any kind of aid.</p>

<p>"How much is left from that dollar? $1.00 minus .79 = .21 cents left from the dollar.
So is there any incentive for a stay-at-home-Mom to go out & earn MORE? "</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>that 21 cents on the dollar is valuable, for a family that is in the brackets where they get need based financial aid. If the mom gets a job paying 25k gross, even 5 k out of that helps</p></li>
<li><p>the FA “tax” you cite is higher than that under FAFSA. So for a family with child in a more typical school than the one you cited, the amount left is higher.</p></li>
<li><p>When FA is reduced, its typically reduced from loans before need based grants in aid. It certainly is at my DD’s school, I made a couple of calls to verify that. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Since my goal is not only to have more cash, but to reduce my DD’s loan burden, the FA aid “tax” does not kick in until we have eliminated the loan portion of the FA package.</p>

<p>Perhaps you are under the impression that a typical FA package which included SOME need based grants in aid did not include any loans? If so, you are incorrect. </p>

<ol>
<li>Going to work while the child is in college, will improve the mom’s likelihood of employment/wage level when the child graduates and the FA “tax” disappears.</li>
</ol>

<p>So yes, the incentive is still there.</p>

<p>“So are you saying that the colleges are supposed to make up for your husbands lack of a job with FA?”</p>

<p>I dont know what she is saying, but what I am saying is that if a private college CHOOSES to do that, for whatever reason, whether its the college’s view of social justice, or the view of social justice of the colleges donors who for some reason choose to make donations confined to need based FA, or simply because the college thinks it will draw a student body that is more interesting to the full pay students (not all of who want to attend a college where most fellow students are affluent) then the folks who were fortunate enough to have incomes that make them full pay, shouldn’t come here to complain. Thats all. The college has no obligation to provide that can’t of FA, and some do not. It also has no obligation to NOT provide it. </p>

<p>If the full pay families do not like the policies of the colleges that provide need based FA, y’all are free to seek out colleges that do not provide need based FA.</p>

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This is still true, but unfortunately a bit less so. The gap between Rice’s cost and that of comparable schools is narrowing :(</p>

<p>( ** I just looked. Don’t know what other school’s tuition increases have been, but when my s started in 2004, base tuition was $20,300 plus the other fees, and they no longer capped tuition for the 4 yrs the student was there. They stopped that that year, much to our chagrin. Base tuition this year (not including fees) is $31,400)</p>