<p>So, does the “don’t come here to complain” apply to everyone who has a problem with an admission policy of colleges that CHOOSE to implement them. No complaints about legacy preference allowed? No complaints about recruited athletes? What if in this economy being a full pay became a significant hook? </p>
<p>Better get busy monitoring other threads, because there’s a lot of complaining about all kinds of things, it will be difficult to make this board a no whining zone.</p>
<p>Unless of course, the no whining only applies to full pay people.</p>
<p>"So, does the “don’t come here to complain” apply to everyone who has a problem with an admission policy of colleges that CHOOSE to implement them. No complaints about legacy preference allowed? No complaints about recruited athletes? What if in this economy being a full pay became a significant hook? </p>
<p>Better get busy monitoring other threads, because there’s a lot of complaining about all kinds of things, it will be difficult to make this board a no whining zone.</p>
<p>Unless of course, the no whining only applies to full pay people. "</p>
<p>I obviously can’t actually stop anyone here from whining. I can, however complain about the whining. The whining I intend to complain about, is whining about how the system allegedly makes college more affordable for folks with lower incomes (ceteris paribas). My free market, dont complain go elsewhere response could of course be applied to a range of other complaints. I have no doubt there are others on CC who will make that response - I feel no inclination to bother making it. Those whines simply are of less interest to me. We all have different tastes in whines, as Robert Parker once said I do think that the full pay complainers, those who have what at least appears to me as a sense of entitlement, have that sense based on a belief in the justice of the market place. I think responding to them with a reminder of their options in the market place is more apropos than people complaining about other things. If the market place does not function, than how can you be sure that there is a correlation between income and “worth” - even economic worth? </p>
<p>Now y’all are free to assert that my complaints about full pay folks complaining about FA policies are actually attacks on full pay folks in general. I hope such assertions are seen for the mistakes they are.</p>
<p>If a family has an income of $250k a year but their savings were decimated over the last six years because someone was out of work, or because there were immense medical issues and costs then yes, SOME colleges will take that into account. Those schools want the best students possible, and they have the funds to help make it possible for children from those families to attend. The alumni from these schools donate to make this possible. It’s not the system, it’s the specific institutions. For the vast majority of schools, losing a job or having a serious illness makes not whit of difference in FA. </p>
<p>momma-three: thank you for a wonderful, wonderful post about the environment you provided for your children (love the Tom Sawyer-esque image of the other kids asking to please help with raking the leaves ), but it’s a pity that it started off with one unfortunate paragraph: </p>
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<p>Please do people here the courtesy of not accusing them en masse. There’s that “you” again (which I’ve put in bold).</p>
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<p>BBD, not fair, please admit you are whining about the whining. Or you are complaining about the complaining. You can’t be the one who gets to complain while the rest of us are whining. :D</p>
<p>"The theory that many of you have is that these schools do so in order to create diversity. </p>
<p>Please do people here the courtesy of not accusing them en masse. There’s that “you” again (which I’ve put in bold)."</p>
<p>quibble - there is a difference between “many of you” and “all of you”. I avoid the latter. The former is often a true and reasonable description of the state of affairs. I think in this case, its at least arguable that many is in fact correct (depending of course on how many theads you look at over what period of time)</p>
<p>“why should the system in essence reward him”</p>
<p>This is the wrong way of thinking about it. The college is always acting in its own best interest as it sees that interest. It believes it will benefit from recruiting/retaining the student whose father lost his job. In order to retain the student, FA has to go up. It’s that simple. The system will never make sense if you try to analyze it as a set of rewards and punishments for parental behavior, because that’s not what it is. It’s about what the college thinks is good for the college.</p>
<p>I am sorry, but I really really take offense momma-three to your characterization of your family as superior because of your hardships. I live in an exspensive area, where people have second homes and take pretty nice vacations. I have a second home and drive an expensive car, my son went to a private day school and then to boarding school, he’s been to Europe, Africa, the Carribbean etc…He has also worked every summer, volunteered, done plenty of EC’s he cared about and is a nice non-elitist kid who plans to serve in the Military because “privledged people owe something back for their good fortune” All of this doesn’t make me worthy of your contempt, I am sorry you have unpleasant people in your life, but please don’t assume all families who have been luckier then others are all horrible snobs. My son built forts,was read to and read a lot and did and still does chores too, yes he had the advantage of good college counseling and wound up at the school he wanted to go to and thank god we can pay for it, and thank god there is FA for those who struggle.</p>
<p>“>>There is in effect no real competition based on price unlike everything else.<<”</p>
<p>-Oh, yes it is. It is called Merit Scholarships and some schools have much more than others, as we have discovered, lots of it from private donations. My D’s tuition has been all covered by various Merit scholarships (she has about 10 of them) that are higher for upper classmen because of departmentals, most of which as far as I know are also private. So, she has combo for ones from our state (she is in-state at state school), from her college, from her Honors college, from department. The way state schools attract top kids is thru giving them spots in extremely selective programs and Merit $$. I call it price based, since in addition to Merit $$, D’s spot in her very selective program (10 spots for freshmen) at the end saved us lots of $$$ also.</p>
Yay! Go Heels!!
I agree the shift in public funding strategy in favor of user fees is troubling, but it’s not unique to higher ed, or solely attributable to those who simply prefer to purchase from the private sector. It’s not just private v. public, it’s also public v. public. It appears to be as much a culture clash as an economic one. </p>
<p>The so-called “middle class” is the largest slice of the population and the most diverse. A sizable chunk of it doesn’t want to pay for services they don’t view as necessities, &/or services they won’t use, &/or services they’re morally opposed to in whole or in part, &/or a host of other reasons. Don’t shoot the messenger, but there are people who fundamentally support education, but view pursuing it via a 4- or 5-year residential experience as a luxury. There are people who support public K-12 schools, but view music and art as frills. </p>
<p>As a general rule, the tighter money is, the tighter people become with it. The onus is always on those who want the service to convince those who don’t to help pay for it. Come election day, please vote!</p>
<p>because no top ten school is charging a market clearing price. those 8% acceptance rates should have made that fact pretty obvious.</p>
<p>anyone want to hazard a guess at the market clearing price at harvard? when a liberal arts college ranked around 30th in the country can reject 70% of applicants despite an average institutional discount resulting in more than $40,000 in revenue per student (at most of those expensive private schools, thats what costs would look like if you eliminated aid, by the way), is there really much doubt that it could get away with a sticker price of, say, $80,000 if others charged the same? student quality would suffer, but the seats would be filled. but harvard? $200,000 per year? $500,000 per year? do we really want to go down that road?</p>
Blowing the BS whistle at that one. Like it or not, the constant “if the fullpay parents don’t like the school’s FA policy they can go somewhere else” comes across as insulting, offensive and demeaning. Like it or not, intentional or not, thats how it comes across. Trying to claim in advance that it isn’t, well that simply doesn’t fly. Sorry BBD, to me your post sounds entitled (sort of like “I am entitled to FA and you are not- and if you don’t like it , go away”). Deny all you want, but it sounds cocky and entitled.</p>
<p>I learned after my first or second visit to CC that families of full pay students are not allowed to comment/complain/whine about the cost of college or need based aid. Apparently your only options are to 1) shut up and pay the bills or 2) trade lives with someone who has no money.</p>
<p>"Blowing the BS whistle at that one. Like it or not, the constant “if the fullpay parents don’t like the school’s FA policy they can go somewhere else” comes across as insulting, offensive and demeaning. Like it or not, intentional or not, thats how it comes across. Trying to claim in advance that it isn’t simply doesn’t fly. Sorry BBD, to me your post sounds entitled (sort of like “I am entitled to FA and you are not- and if you don’t like it , go away”). "</p>
<p>It may come across as insulting, but even then it should only be insulting to “those who don’t like it” which is, I think obviously, not ALL full pay families. I presume there are full pay families who are happy with the currrent system. </p>
<p>As for insulting, is it really any more insulting than “if you dont get enough aid at a select school, your kid can go to a public” Not that I am dont recognize the fine qualities and good fit of many publics, but its the same “if you dont like it go elsewhere” Except that the full pay complainers (note again, not all full pay) generally believe they are entitled to the results of “their hard work” - IE that the market generated distribution of income is intrinsically just. They, of all people, should be amenable to a market based response.</p>
<p>As for my own entitlement, my DD was accepted to one private college that did NOT give her a FA aid package that would have made attendance possible. She had to rule it out, even though she had initially preferred it to the school she did ultimately select. I have not complained here about that schools policy. I accept that that is the choice they made based on their institutional interests.</p>
<p>Have you or your friends ever wondered how the URM’s or poor get to MHCCPYBP? If not than you are among the few that don’t. Your son is in the military and for that all Americans are grateful. If my post did not ring long and hard for you than either you are walking around with ear plugs or blinders. The world is not so kind to those who have it hard (I am not talking about myself) and this is what I do see and hear among the people in my community. Many people disguise it well but it always seems to come out at some point. Even in business my husband and I hear the attitude of entitlement. It’s not a pleasant thing so I would not expect anyone to admit it…however you are very wrong if you do not believe it.</p>
<p>“I learned after my first or second visit to CC that families of full pay students are not allowed to comment/complain/whine about the cost of college or need based aid. Apparently your only options are to 1) shut up and pay the bills or 2) trade lives with someone who has no money.”</p>
<p>did some mod delete your posts? You are allowed to whine about anything you want - just be prepared that someone may disagree with you. Thats true of most issues here.</p>
<p>BTW, I am sympathetic to those who complain about the cost of college in general. I have only disagreed with those attacking the existence of need based aid.</p>
<p>look at all the money folks spend on tutors, SAT prep, college counselors, and, in extremis, on private secondary schools with the aim of getting into elite colleges. Do people spend money for the privilege of being allowed to buy a particuylar car or house?</p>
I disagree with this. No one is “entitled” to anything. Students apply to many schools and choose the school that is best for them based on fit, cost, what have you. That comment smacks of jealousy. Sounds like “Let’s put down the “haves” because we dont have.” No one is “entitled” to anything. Many full-pay families may take out big loans, refinance their house, take on second jobs, etc, to pay for their child’s school (as is probably true for many need based families too). Its quite possible that the full pay families end up in worse financial shape than the need-based families. Not every full-pay family lives in a huge home with a huge yard, owns a boat and a vacation house. Many full-pay families are hard-working average joes who may, based on some antiquated formula or my luck of being born into the right family, not meet the FA “need” criteria of a school. Stop insulting the families that for whatever reason pay the full sticker price.</p>
<p>momma-three, clearly you dislike me and what I represent to you, I have friends who have children on FA, in a very difficult situation. They balance offers, stress out, sacrifice and juggle. I am nothing but grateful that our circimstances are easier. I don’t disdain any one who is in a different situation, but you do. Sorry. BTW my son is only a freshman in college, he is planning on doing the marine officers summer school program, yes he is taking his “spoiled” self down to Quantico this summer instead of swanning around Europe.</p>
I do think that the full pay complainers, those who have what at least appears to me as a sense of entitlement, have that sense based on a belief in the justice of the market place. I think responding to them with a reminder of their options in the market place is more apropos than people complaining about other things. If the market place does not function, than how can you be sure that there is a correlation between income and “worth” - even economic worth? </p>
), but it’s a pity that it started off with one unfortunate paragraph: </p>