Dear Wash U...STOP LYING about your admissions statistics!

<p>i don't understand the reason why people think Waitlisting applicants 1) boost a school's USNews rankings, and 2) fudges the numbers. OR, why they think WUSTL waitlists top applicants.</p>

<ol>
<li>FACT: Wash U has a higher average SAT and ACT score than many of its competitor schools. Its impossible for them to "wait list top applicants" and still maintain amongst the highest test scores in the country. MIT and Cal Tech are probably two schools that have higher test scores than Wash U, and those schools probably don't steal many applicants from Wash U. Of course, we all know that test scores are the only measure of intelligence and likely success :)</li>
<li>FACT: The US Department of Education collects such data from colleges, so the data is overseen by some agency. </li>
<li>Selectivity and acceptance percentage are such a small portion of a US News ranking, that a school's selectivity has to change SIGNIFICANTLY for it to have a material difference in the ranking change from year to year.</li>
<li>Wash U might waitlist more people than its competitor schools. However, its likely that they might accept more people from it. </li>
<li>Waitlisting helps colleges even out their freshman class. Wash U has 5 or 6 undergraduate divisions, each with their own enrollment numbers. Most colleges like Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, etc... have ONE or TWO undergraduate schools -- they only admit one or two freshman classes. Wash U has to do this for 5 or 6 classes! I can't imagine how difficult it must be to coordinate ideal and actual enrollment numbers WITHOUT using a wait list to even things out at the end. Even more amazing is how much more flexible and barrier-free Wash U is compared to other schools.</li>
</ol>

<p>NUMBERS TIME!!! Wash U received about 22,000 applications last year. Let's say they admitted exactly 4000 people for an acceptance rate of 18.2%, which is roughly accurate. Given their freshman class of 1400 students, that's a yield of 35%. Somewhat low, but Northwestern, Emory, and UChicago have similar yields. Let's say of those 4000 accepted people, 150 of them were accepted from the wait list (an estimation, but this is in line with reported figures similar schools that DID report such numbers). Accepting people from a wait-list helps to even out a freshman class. Waitlist-accepted people are more likely to say "yes" than a typical Regular Decision accepted kid. For ease of argument, let's say ALL of the 150 wait list acceptances said "yes" to Wash U.
NOW... let's say that those 150 people weren't accepted from the wait list. Instead, Wash U didn't use a wait list... and as a result they needed to accept 4250 people to get to the same freshman class size of 1400. That increases their overall acceptance rate to 19.3%. Which is only 1% higher than if they did use the wait list to accept people. ONE PERCENT DIFFERENCE.
Clearly this does NOT make a significant difference in statistics, rankings, etc. </p>

<p>Who knows how many people they wait list and if accusations are true or not. AND WHO CARES. It has NOTHING to do with a school's quality, student life, or academics. If it's true, then waitlisting instead of denying people might have gotten them get more attention in the 80s and 90s when their name started to get more prominent, but I can't see any statistical reason why it would sustain a high ranking or lead to higher rankings nowadays. Allegedly waitlisting so many people is controversial, but with 6 undergraduate schools and a desire to become more prominent, it's understandable in my opinion. </p>

<p>Also in the 80s and 90s when they started to get more nationally/internationally prominent, that was around the same time MANY OTHER colleges went through the same process. Even during high school, I couldn't name 3 of the 8 Ivy League schools. I thought UPenn was a state school. I couldn't tell you where most of the ivies were located, either. I had no idea what Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, or Emory was... and even coming from the Chicago area, I didn't even know U Chicago was that great of a school until much later!! Granted I'm only one person, but many of my friends were in the same boat. Rankings Guides, Marketing materials, THE INTERNET, and all sorts of medium helped MANY GOOD SCHOOLS become more recognized. Wash U has a goofy name and will have a tougher name recognition problem than many other schools... but this is not the only school to have grown from a "Regional" school to a nationally renowned school. </p>

<p>Harvard Princeton Stanford and Yale will always be the four most easily recognizeable schools in the US. However, even Princeton's name was "college of new jersey" for more than half its life, Stanford is a pretty new school in terms of when it was founded, Cornell is partly state-funded, and UPenn still sounds like a state school :) . Colleges change, colleges become better, and colleges become more recognized. It's just sad that some people look down at Wash U because it has a goofier name, because is in the midwest (which is inherently uncool for some people), and because it's freshman class profile has crept up to the hallowed ivy league. I applaud a college who has done what Wash U has done, and discredit other schools that have rested on their laurels and name recognition alone and who wish they could develop as rapidly as Wash U has. </p>

<p>People hear "ivy league" and they automatically think it's an amazing school. Most people, however, probably couldn't name all ivies if you asked them too. People say "I've heard XXX is a good school", but they can't tell you one oustanding program, anything about the curriculum, prominent faculty, important discoveries, what activities students do, etc. Some friend might have said "XXX is a good school" and that's how some other guy heard about a school. It's all about word of mouth, and what's sad about colleges is that for most of America, a NAME is all they know... nothing more than a name. For people "in the know", ie top company recruiters, grad schools, etc, they know which schools are really great, which schools consistently produce top performers, and which schools have great professors and WHY in certain fields.</p>

<p>"Even during high school, I couldn't name 3 of the 8 Ivy League schools. I thought UPenn was a state school. I couldn't tell you where most of the ivies were located, either. I had no idea what Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, or Emory was... and even coming from the Chicago area, I didn't even know U Chicago was that great of a school until much later!"</p>

<p>I feel sorry for you.......</p>

<p>Great post, keepitcoolidge!</p>

<p>Ronaldo - why post such a mean statement? Would you say those things in person, face-to-face? </p>

<p>I was lucky. I grew up in a home where everybody went to college, in fact everybody had a Masters Degree or better. I could have named every Ivy, where they were located, and probably someone I knew who had attended. This is the family I grew up with.</p>

<p>I was not the norm. Most Americans are not lucky enough to think that college is a given, and a "good" college the goal. </p>

<p>For those who were not born to know these things, isn't it something commendable to know these things now? To have gotten good enough grades and scores and extra-curriculars that they can even have this conversation and possible choices?</p>

<p>I respect those who learned about colleges because of their own merit as much, or more, than those who were exposed due to the luck of birth.</p>

<p>Be kind everybody.</p>

<ol>
<li>FACT: The US Department of Education collects such data from colleges, so the data is overseen by some agency. </li>
</ol>

<p>Again, please educate yourself. The Department of Education receives the information that the school collects. There is no independent auditor so they could submit any numbers they want based on nothing (including the number of applicants). There is no reason why WUSTL numbers are what they are. It defies reason. People don't apply to college in a bubble. WUSTL has competitors, and there is no reason why it should receive so many more apps than the schools I listed in my original post. The fact that it even receives more apps and has a lower acceptance rate and higher test scores than Northwestern is itself a little suspect. </p>

<p>And all of the personal attacks are totally irrelevant and pathetic. FACT: I never applied to WUSTL.</p>

<p>The issue here is institutional integrity. It is unfair for students to be duped when WUSTL lies about their numbers. Until someone can explain why WUSTL is such a statistical outlier besides mass mailing (which is not a legitimate reason), there numbers should always be questioned because there is no independent auditor of their records.</p>

<p>The only evidence I see here that WashU is lying about the number of applications it received is that one poster thinks the number is "too high" compared to other schools. That's not really evidence. I suspect that what's really going on is that WashU's aggressive marketing campaign has resulted in it being added to a lot of admissions lists by a lot of students. It has quite clearly moved into the category of near-Ivy, along with Vanderbilt, Tufts, Duke, Chicago, and a few others. Perhaps because of its location in the middle of the country, it draws a lot of regional applications. Perhaps its easier to add it as the "one more match" school because of the easy application.
Besides, it would really not be a good idea for a school to lie about numbers like this. Too many people would have to know about the lie, and if it got out, which it easily could do, it could really hurt the school's rep. So while they might fudge, oversimplify, and obfuscate, I doubt if they would simply lie about the number of applications or the SAT scores of matriculating students.</p>

<p>Not having a supplement essay is also a huge reason for high number of applicants. I personally know over half a dozen people applying just because they don't have to write any extra essays.</p>

<p>agreed with LazyAznBoy</p>

<p>Well, UCLA also received a lot more applications compared to its peer institutions (UMich, Berkeley, UVA, and UNC). So, are you gonna say the school is cheating?
Btw, just to let you know...UCLA received around 50K+ applications. </p>

<p>You only can say something is wrong because you think it is wrong. Well, MAYBE you think it is wrong because there is something wrong with your way of thinking.</p>

<p>Folks- I have just two comments: First, Hunt makes a lot of fair points. WashU is popular, has great PR, is a terrific school that has capitalized on having one of the top med schools in the U.S., and makes it application very easy by requiring no additional essays, thus driving up the number of applicants, as opposed to schools like Tufts and Northwestern, which have more burdensome applications. So what? None of this means it is lying about anything, just that it knows how to play the game that caters to USNWR rankings.
Second, Davida obviously has a bug up his/her --s about WashU, so why are you all playing into it? His/her challenges to this fine school's integrity is, frankly, puerile. Stop satisfying this person's immature craving for attention!</p>

<p>Hunt: Again, the data is published by admissions there is no independent auditor to ensure the numbers are based on anything real...Obviously then, there wouldn't be evidence. Dumb comment.</p>

<p>BearCub: UCLA receives so many apps because the UC application allows every applicant applying to a UC to just check a box for which schools you want to apply to, which means that people might as well throw there hat in to the pool at UCLA if they are applying to the less selective UC's. Also, layman's prestige, presence, and knowledge of what UCLA is means that they should receive that number of apps. Also, state population is a huge factor and it is a state school. Very few schools put out unreliable numbers like WUSTL. </p>

<p>LAZYASNBOY - plenty of schools don't require supplemental essays. That is not a valid argument.</p>

<p>heyalb,</p>

<p>I went to a small school so yes I know whether or not the applicant was a URM, legacy, recruited athlete, etc., etc.</p>

<p>go away davida1</p>

<p>Davida1, how many of those schools are ranked higher or as high as WashU?</p>

<p>davida1, I hope you feel responsible for what you're doing. You make it seem like you're being objective and convincing, but all you're doing is--I'm sorry to say--ranting. You should be smart enough to know that this is a forum for not only prospies but also for current WashU students. If you're trying to prove that WashU is lying about its admissions statistics, why don't you write an expose about it in your school's newspaper or contact WashU? You're not accomplishing anything productive whatsoever here. All you're doing is provoking anger and hurting other people's feelings.</p>

<p>^ Couldn't agree more. We should just let this thread die once and for all now.</p>

<p>Davida1, why don't you tell us which school you go to? And then, show us how you came out with the idea that your school's statistics are legit? Cos, I think everyone in here would like to see that. =)</p>

<p>WashU is so overrated. My GC suggested that I should apply. I didn't bother since I have never heard of this school in my life.</p>

<p>what davida1 claims is, since there is no independent auditors. he can irresponsibly blame any school, anyone, any admission officer, based on his own untrue, faked, ridiculous "common sense", even if he cannot prove anything he claimed is true. </p>

<p>How funny and absurd that argument is! Please do not attack other schools beause of your own ignorance! Also, I am really wondering which school you come from. What you are doing now is defaming the prestige of your own college, and I am very very glad that I did not go to your college, in which the student is so bitter and irresponsible.</p>

<p>OK, people. Stop reponding to this thread, Pulleeeze.</p>