<p>Have a potato for me.</p>
<p>D'yer: apparently Matt Lovejoy comes from New Hampshire. Also, he is listed as having been a senior this past year (not a PG) on the Deerfield hockey roster (apparently he is quite an athlete!). An interesting conflict since I know there is a certain sensitivity surounding the question of PGs participating in the elite hockey programs.</p>
<p>I assumed Lovejoy was homegrown because I saw that lots of family members were Deerfield alums. I got a PM from someone (who I'm not familiar with here, but I assume that by not posting his information here had decided that he either didn't want to be identified or didn't want to "show me up"). His PM informed me that my rapidfire Google search was not exactly scientifically accurate. </p>
<p>Basically, I was flat out wrong about McCabe being a PG and, by only looking at the Deerfield season recap for names, I didn't look up some of Deerfield's top graduating players this year which include many homegrown products.</p>
<p>Here's the information I received, which I have to assume is accurate (or at least MORE ACCURATE) than my information:</p>
<p>*I've been around the new england lacrosse scene for a a while, and some of your information is a little off. i.e. Ben McCabe is a home grown product.</p>
<p>Here is a list of the big contributors.</p>
<p>-Matt Lovejoy (homegrown), by far the best player on the big green. A two time all american going to Virginia.
-Billy Bitter (PG)
-Ben McCabe (homegrown) has been at Deerfield for a couple years. Is a big, big attackman- going to colgate.
-Alex Forrey (homegrown) going to Yale for lax.
-Milton Lyles (homegrown) probably the 2nd best player on the team. got snubbed for all american honors, as most people consider him the most dangers lsm in new england. he will either be attending UNC or pg'ing another year at Salisbury.
-Adam Boardman (homegrown) playing lax at Dartmouth this fall.
-Sam Finnell (PG)</p>
<p>These were Deerfield's top 7 contributors, most of them were homegrown.</p>
<p>Traditionally, Deerfield's strongest players in the past have not been pg's. Josh Lesko(princeton) and Brooks Scholl(harvard), both DA lax legends, are testaments to that.*</p>
<p>EDIT: I see where I went wrong with McCabe. I had found a web site that refers to him playing in Brunswick, ME and for Deerfield. I assumed that he got a degree first; but apparently that's just where he came from before graduating (for the first time) from Deerfield.</p>
<p>Just to make sure we're all on the same page -- while Lesko and Scholl were not PG's, both repeated a year when they entered Deerfield. Not an uncommon practice there and at many other schools.</p>
<p>Dyer - I have found, almost invariably, that making assumptions (as you so liberally did) gets me into trouble.</p>
<p>Also, the last I heard it was still colleges that awarded degrees and high schools that awarded diplomas...</p>
<p>D'yer:</p>
<p>I have no idea what your PMer means by "homegrown". I know for certain that Milton Lyles comes from Florida; and as I say, Deerfield's information lists Lovejoy's home state as New Hampshire. Does he mean brought up through the ranks at Deerfield? (I'm guessing, although it's a confusing use of the term at a boarding school where so many kids come from all over the place!)</p>
<p>This is such a guy board. I don't care whether they're PGs or not. :)</p>
<p>smile dog, D'yer is alluding to the fact that they have spent multiple years at Deerfield. They have "grown as a player" inside the Deerfield system, hence the term "homegrown".</p>
<p>I believe the ISL powers are Middlesex and Nobles. Middlesex lax players routinely end up at Brown ,Harvard, and the like</p>
<p>Yes, bigblue09 and smile dog, that's what I mean/meant.</p>
<p>@ leanid: Well, I didn't make much of an assumption. And of the 7 players I listed, the only one I got wrong was McCabe. </p>
<p>The same source that referred to McCabe, referred to Kelso Davis -- a Deerfield PG -- using the same format for McCabe, identifying the first high school, followed by the next school (Deerfield), followed by the college. I assumed nothing more than the fact that the site only listed two schools where a player actually graduated, since that was true for Davis and, well, it would be (is) silly to run through a player's entire pedigree. I wouldn't consider that a liberally-made assumption. </p>
<p>I also limited myself to '07 grads named in the Deerfield lacrosse recap (a fact I disclosed up front)...but that wasn't even an assumption. I wasn't suggesting that Deerfield had 6 players graduate; I was simply disinclined to identify and look up every '07 grad on their roster.</p>
<p>So the bottom line is that I checked 6 players, and 3 (not 4) were PGs. Plus I came across a fourth PG without even trying. My PM buddy corrected me on McCabe and named 3 more "homegrown" players. That's 10 players (maybe 9 depending on who Ogden is) graduating this year (with diplomas, not degrees) and 4 of them are PGs. At this point, we're not at the "more like 7" that fun is fun suggested, and we're above the "one maybe 2" that Linda S recalled. What that means is something I leave to other people to decide.</p>
<p>I will say that I'm not a fan of PGs mainly because, except for sports, kids are on a track and at 12th grade you get measured and move along. When I start seeing kids who have special talents in other disciplines -- from bassoonists to mathematicians -- being recruited for PG years at top prep schools, I'll take a look and reconsider. But the practice of having high school graduates come in as ringers for a year on your high school team just seems to scream of a warped sense of priorities and makes the teams that use PGs something of a hybrid between a high school team and a college freshman squad (something big colleges used to have when the NCAA prohibited freshmen from playing). None of that means that Deerfield didn't have a great squad by all accounts. I do question whether it -- or any of the PG schools -- can lay claim to having a high school squad when they are making a conscious, concerted, and calculated effort to bring in kids who have already graduated specifically for the purpose of playing in certain sports.</p>
<p>While I agree, on balance, with what D'yer Maker is saying, at the same time, this is the reality of sports in the larger sense -- i.e. this PG phenomenon is just par for the course for what will happen later on in life.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is, America is a sports crazy nation. From daily doses of ESPN SportsCenter to the annual Superbowl extravaganza, America is in love with its sports -- and in love with its sports stars: Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Peyton Manning, Lance Armstrong, etc.</p>
<p>And let's face it. They get special treatment. We turn a blind eye to some of the off field indiscretions that take place (or at least are not as harsh if it were some regular schmoe). From Pacman Jones, to Ron Artest to the Minnesota Vikings "sex boat" scandal. From Baseball (Steroids anyone?) Eh, so what?</p>
<p>They are treated more like mega superstars / rockstars and rightly so. They are ENTERTAINERS at the end of the day. They provide us with a form of entertainment, give us a sense of pride in our teams, etc.</p>
<p>That's what these PGs can provide at a much smaller level. Those select few with the skill / talent to raise the game, in turn, provide the ability to give the school community (read: wealthy alumni, prospective student/athletes) a sense of pride. This is not dissimilar with what happens with professional sports stars. They are the ones we pay to go see at the stadiums. They are the ones generating the lion's share of a franchise's revenue (they aren't named franchise players for nothing).</p>
<p>And so they get a pass. And if they continue to perform at top levels and are able to enter the pros. Elite athletes will continue getting a pass.</p>
<p>Is it "fair"? That's another discussion. It's what happens in the real world. And prep schools, unfortunately, are not immune to that reality.</p>
<p>A liitle history: PG's used to be solely the provence of the "Big" schools.
Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, Hotchkiss, L'ville, Hill, Choate, Peddie, NMH etc., going back probably to to the 30's or 40's. These schools typically played each other and regularly played college freshman and jv teams. They were primarily involved with football and hockey, later lacrosse and some other sports. As they played each other and college teams, no harm, no foul right? ( I know a guy who played lacrosse for Deerfield in the 60's, undefeated team crushed all comers and if he recalls correctly about half were college teams)</p>
<p>Now, many schools take them (everyone in West 1 lacrosse save Brunswick)as well as Tilton, Pomfret, Vermont Academy, Holderness, Hun, etc., etc.
The only real bastion of "amateurism" is the ISL. </p>
<p>Is this system fair to 1) the kid who plays hard and improves over two or three years and loses his spot to a PG? 2) The schools that don't have PG's and compete with these schools? and 3) The senior class that finds from 3-30+ new faces as they begin their last year? No, probably not and maybe.</p>
<p>Incidentally - most admissions officers will tell you that their PG's are among the most motivated, academically able and best behaved students. In my experience this is true.</p>
<p>There's a right way and wrong way to employ PG's -- as I mentioned the Erickson football league (Hotchkiss, Loomis, Taft, Avon Old Farms, Kent, Salisbury and Trinity-Pawling) restricts PG's to 4. On the other hand, NMH had 12 lacrosse PG's this year. I heard that Andover had 10+ for football.</p>
<p>Regardless, there won't be many changes. These schools, like everybody else, like to win and winning (especially for lesser known schools) produces recognition. Further, PG's can substantially improve a school's college admissions profile.</p>
<p>Prestige -- what a stretch! You implicitly compare Pacman Jones to a PG who typically is a good, well behaved student who's goal is to play a little college hockey, football or lacrosse.</p>
<p>fun is fun,</p>
<p>your summary of my entire post reduced to a throwaway line: Pacman Jones = PG is a stretch if anything.</p>
<p>fact is, elite athletes get special treatment. the level of that treatment increases as they move up along the sports food chain. therefore, the prep school level is hardly = the billion dollar NFL industry. now, you can ignore that fact if you want, but please don't take my entire post of out context.</p>
<p>Prestige --</p>
<p>You're right, I oversimplified your point.</p>
<p>Sorry.</p>
<p>IMHO - Another good reason to consider SPS!</p>
<p>fun is fun, no worries.</p>
<p>fun is fun, Andover had 5 pg's for football - in line with most of the schools they compete with in NEPSAC Class A</p>
<p>Be wary of the ISL being the last "bastion". The top athletic teams from these schools admit 15 yr old freshmen as repeat freshmen. The coaches are not allowed to recruit, but the parents of existing students are the schools biggest recruiters. If you really want to find out who the PG's are look only to their birthdate. There are kids that have stayed back at middle school and and then repeat at an ISL school as a freshman, sophmore or junior. The only difference is the ISL schools do not take kids coming in as seniors or PG's. Not much difference IMHO.</p>
<p>Many, especially boys, repeat ninth grade. It's not always because of athletics, but maturity...or the lack thereof.</p>