Definition of URM?

<p>momsdream and northstarmom:</p>

<p>Tell me does your won children that has any disadvantages in growing up.</p>

<p>Did they fear for their life in going to school? Did they see first hand guns used and their own circle of friends either killed or be put in jail? They saw most of their friend using drugs and no hope out of this environment? Did they have both parents who were absent from their life? Did they have some parent who does not care about education, as parents are involved in drug addict?</p>

<p>Second case: Did they have parents who want to improve their kids life but have no resources to move out of underperforming schools? Sometime they have sleep hungry, as there is no money for food? One parent maybe in jail and no one is to tell them what to do? Nobody encourages these kids that they need to sober up to avoid kids? How many of you saw the Coach Carter? </p>

<p>If you answers many of these questions yes and still your kid perform then that kid should be admitted over a kid who has even won Intel prize? You may have seen these circumstances yourself but you kids has not been exposed to this environment throughout their life. Now if a kid still perform and complete the education despite all odds? This kids is a performer and better than 90% of URM kids admitted by today’s standard. The odds were against this kids and he still perform. This kid is a survivor. These kids deserve merit awards and financial aid and everything. This kid is much better than URM who are getting in just telling America is discriminating against me. Tell me if you make $75000 then you are like rest of us. We face problems too but do not talk about it. We have our own problems. I have poor language skills as compare to you people who are native English speaker. Me Me Me alone? But immigrating to this country was my choice. And I must overcome my language skills by using my technical skills. </p>

<p>Whatever you may say, your kid has no disadvantage at all if he did not saw the problem with gun, violence, drug, and no parental supervision. And rest perception is not important. In my company many AA are engineers. I ask them that do they have any disadvantages? There answer is none. I rest my case. </p>

<p>So a KID with no potential problems does not need a leg up in admission. But I agree with you that as a URM parent you have a right to ignore merit and push what is good for you and your kids? But that does not make it right?</p>

<p>"If you answers many of these questions yes and still your kid perform then that kid should be admitted over a kid who has even won Intel prize? "</p>

<p>Your argument is fallacious since neither momsdream nor I has said the above. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, top colleges desire to have qualified students who represent all sorts of diversity: socioeconomic, race, ethnicity, country of origin, interests, talents, religion, etc. As a result, to build a diverse class, liberal arts colleges and places like Ivies are not likely to accept every Intel applicant who applies. If there's an overabundance of Intel applicants and a lack of classic majors, students from rural backgrounds, polo players or URMs, in creating a well rounded class, the adcoms will select the qualified students who best help them achieve their goals.</p>

<p>"n my company many AA are engineers. I ask them that do they have any disadvantages? There answer is none. I rest my case. "</p>

<p>Anecdotal information does not subject for well designed research.</p>

<p>Your African American colleagues -- in the interests of getting along with a colleague and avoiding contentious discussions of controversial issues -- are likely to tell you the answer that would be least likely to disrupt their working relationship with you, regardless of whether that answer is the truth.</p>

<p>Presumably you are at work to do engineering or whatever your field is, not to have discussions/debate over affirmative action.</p>

<p>I am not talking about you alone. This is a test that needs to be asked for given a kids leg up in URM admission process. All I am saying this kind of URM needs a full support to make the wrong URM Ploicy right. I am not a native speaker so I may not be clear. But tell me which URM you will choose - a URM with odds against it or a URM like a suburban kid life style.</p>

<p>I am sure 100% kids with Intel will be in but this poor urm kids should be selcted as he is a performer. A MERIT Based kid.</p>

<p>" But tell me which URM you will choose - a URM with odds against it or a URM like a suburban kid life style."</p>

<p>I am among the several posters who have said that if there's a choice between two candidates who qualify for admission, the URM who has been academically successful despite overcome odds would be the more desireable candidate.</p>

<p>But is that what is happening in college admission? No poor URM are not getting supported by anyone? We are building jails but do not want to recruite good teachers and people who can guide these poor but intellegent souls. The whole system is sickening. I am enrolled in a program where I can see that giving time to these kids can do miracles in their life. The most basic thing they are lacking are positive role models. I wish URM community make it a frank discussion how to solve this problem and do someting about it. These policy will help later on getting better financial aid in fighting what ails in continental Africa. </p>

<p>Being an asian I can say Tsunami help taught me that AA community needs a frank discussion about where they want to go. Just helping top 10% URM is no policy. We need to have policies which affect the masses URM - where they live in poor environment in rural or urban america.</p>

<p>I just thought of another point I wish to make on this.....</p>

<p>I don't think most poor URMs who have achieved enough academic success to go to college really think the same way whites/Asians do about which schools are most desirable for them. </p>

<p>For whites/asians, they aspire to the usual highly selective schools. For a good majority of privileged URMs, the schools of choice might be the same schools the whites/asians are looking at. This is because most of the privileged URMs have been surrounded by the same academic culture as the whites and asians.</p>

<p>For poor URMs, who attend HS in a different culture, the most desirable college is NOT part the Ivy & Co list. Ask a poor, smart black girl where should would want to go to school if she had top grades and could go anywhere. Most likely, her response would be "I want "make the haj" to Spelman!" or "I want to go to "THE MECCA", Howard".... or Hampton (wildly popular choice for wealthy African Americans, too).....or, for the guys.....the ever popular and coveted Morehouse College. </p>

<p>So, when someone makes the argument that privileged blacks are taking spots from poor blacks, I disagree. I doubt that Harvard's admission desk is overflowing with poor black applications that will be rejected in favor of wealthy blacks. I bet Harvard wishes that was so, but it just isn't. </p>

<p>So, before Asians and whites start fighting for the dreams of all of these poor URMs dying to attend Harvard, you might want to take a trip the neighborhood where these kids live and see how they feel about it...... and where THEY want to go to school, given the chance. For them, getting into Hampton, Howard, Spelman and Morehouse is a dream.....not Harvard. </p>

<p>And, to be frank, most wealthy blacks don't want Ivy and Co either. They, too, regard HHSM as the definition of success....as it has been for many, many generations in black communities. </p>

<p>The tradition is rich and deep-rooted. </p>

<p>A black doctor is likely to have a hard time accepting that his son/daughter wants to attend Princeton over one of the black schools that has been turning out doctors and lawyers in his family as far back as he can recall. </p>

<p>Don't believe me? Read "The BAP (Black American Princess) Handbook" (a funny book - but might be interesting to someone outside of the culture) or "Our Kind of People" ....where the drive to attend "the right school" (HHSM) is discussed at length.</p>

<p>"We are building jails but do not want to recruite good teachers and people who can guide these poor but intellegent souls. "</p>

<p>I share your concerns. Inner city schools and other schools in low income areas are more likely to have uncertified teachers and teachers teaching outside of their specialty areas than are schools in more affluent areas.</p>

<p>They also have major lack of resources: technology, guidance counselors who know how the college admissions system works, etc.</p>

<p>The students who are in most need of strong support from their schools are the ones least likely to get it in our country that supports public elementary and secondary education mainly through property taxes.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, there's a booming prison industry because for some poor, mainly rural, white communities, working in prisons are their main sources of employment.</p>

<p>This is called digital divide. </p>

<p>This will create more problems. My son and I are doing something about this in nearby city. Belive me it is an eye opener. Coach acrter was an eye opener for us. I wish bill gates foundation donate money wheer poor URM kids are in grade school so we can create better kids right before we sacrifice them to drugs and other problems. And then it is too late to correct it. Remember prevention is less $$$$$ as compare to coreection.</p>

<p>ParentNY-
I earn a 6 figure income. I send my son to a school that costs me more than I will pay for college next year. Earlier this year, my son encountered repeated violence at school......not from his white classmates, but from the black kids in the neighborhood. They taunted him because he has more opportunities than they do. They beat his best friend to the point where that kid lost his memory and required emergency treatment. They surrounded my son's car and refused to let him go. This was not ONE incident on one day, this was a series of events. The school had to hire extra security officers and create a special program to handle the issue. In my son's case, the police determined that it was a case of black on black crime...specifically directed at him....just because he's black and attending that school...and because he wears nice clothing...and has a car....and has white friends with whom he walks and talks. This wasn't his first beating....he's had a few...starting in about 4th grade. So, think about that when you make your argument that privileged URMs have no problems. Need more examples? Cause I have LOTS of real-life situations to share.</p>

<p>You obviously don't have enough exposure to URMs to understand the problems faced in daily life. You are going off of movies and programs...not living in IT, everyday. Why do you think poor URMs aren't being supported by anyone? You can't lump ALL of the problems of blacks (crime, teachers, lack of role models - AFRICA??) into one ball and offer the abolishion of AA as a fix. I don't buy it.</p>

<p>"I ask them that do they have any disadvantages? There answer is none. I rest my case. "</p>

<p>Best not to rest your case on that. I would have told you the same thing.....because....</p>

<ol>
<li>it's none of your business</li>
<li>we are at work, and this is not the palce to discuss my personal problems</li>
<li>I don't trust you...especially since you are asking me a question like that</li>
</ol>

<p>Momsdream - So you think that asian nerd kids is not bullied and taunted for being differnt and sometime beaten up. I think you have no idea about being smart and getting punished for it. How about a girl not attractive enough? How about a boy who is not tall enough or handsome enough? These are big problems to these kids and they are all real.</p>

<p>How about a parent whose kids have down syndrome or Asperger's syndrome or other medical problems. Your perception is very narrow that only AA kids face problems. If you will see other problems then you will realize that your own problem are very less. momsdream if your kid was admitted based on Merit I am sure he can tell the other person that listen I have 1600/4.0/800/800/800 and your perception about AA is wrong. If all AA kids who have privilages start performing and showing their hard work the thet perception will go away. And there are kids who are doing but they are far few. Till that time we have this problems.</p>

<p>parent, you're going way out there to support your position...telling me that my perception is narrow? I KNOW all kids face problems, obviously. Do I really need to say that? C'mon. And comparing being black and excelling in school to being not pretty or tall is another example that you don't get it. I'm trying to help you...but I don't think you hear...because you don't listen because you think you know everything because you saw some movie. You are very insulting. This is my last post on this thread. Someone else can take over if they wish, I'm exhausted.</p>

<p>No, my son's chances were not very slim. He had a wealth of OTHER supports to his application and his background. Since it was his personal info, I won't get into it here. This is EXACTLY why your argument is flawed...because you make flip assumptions without having all the facts. And, you will NEVER have all the facts about people and their personal issues unless you are an adcom....which you are not. </p>

<p>Why do you think you are qualified to make a rash judgement about my son's chances based on the VERY little info I have provided? </p>

<p>I now see why you are so angry....you are working on raw emotion, not facts and figures. That's not good for anyone. African Americans don't need that kind of help, thank you. </p>

<p>I guess I should ask you what "privileged" means to you...since you seem to base your entire argument on that term. What IS privilege? </p>

<p>If I attend a private school, but live in a ghetto, am I privileged?</p>

<p>If I live in the burbs, but my parents don't care about me and are away on vacation 80% of the time and I care for myself, am I privileged?</p>

<p>If I go to a great school in the burbs, but have to walk through my ghetto neighborhood where my backpack is always stolen offo fmy back, am I privileged?</p>

<p>If my classmates all call me "spear-chucker" and "knuckle-dragger" and I have no friends at school, but my parents make me go to this school anyway because it gives me a good education, am I privileged?</p>

<p>If my dad died when I was 2 and my moms works two jobs just to keep me enrolled in a private school, am I privileged? </p>

<p>Help me understand what privilege is.....and how long someone needed to have been privileged in your book? Can my parent make good money this year, but might have been dirt poor 2 years ago....and dirt poor ever since I was born? Will I still count as "privileged" in your book?</p>

<p>P.S. I wish the moderator had not edited your post, as I don't think what you said was discourteous.....it was just an example of why your logic is so flawed. If I recall, you were telling me that my son would not have gotten in without being a URM. I love that you said that...without even having the befit of his scores, GPA, ECs, background. It ends my need for debate....because you've made my point better than I could have on my own. </p>

<p>As I said, I'm done. You've already made my point. Thanks.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You obviously don't have enough exposure to URMs to understand the problems faced in daily life. You are going off of movies and programs...not living in IT

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I tried to stay out of it but this quote does sum up a few things. This past weekend I went ot visit my daughter at family weekend and she told me that there are discussions about AA in the dorms. She has told me that some of her friends have told her to her face that when they are talking about most black people they are not talking about her because she doesn't "talk black" she is "not loud', she has not grown up in a gang environment and she doesn't act like the blacks that they have seen in the movies. This I truly find mindboggling that "smart people" can feed into stupid sterotypes.</p>

<p>She have even had a "friend" tell her that they though that it was wrong for her to hold on to her idenity as a black woman because it was in "conflict with american culture" (I put friend in quotatio marks because the remark has unfortunately placed a riff in their relationship). If you can explain that thinking to me I am really ready to hear it. My daughter asked her if she realizes that America is a country of immigrants where pretty much every one here has roots frome somewhere else, and the beauty of living here is that there is so much to be learned from others if one is receptive to learning. The sad thing is that some of this is the same BS that they have heard their parents say so it must be true.</p>

<p>She has been told that she was at a disadvantage of being in the city vs having been raised in the suburbs. D responded that being raised in a place like NYC and having the opportunity of attending public school is that she has friends from many races and many walks of life. Friend told her that she should have been raised in the suburbs , as it is prettier and until she arrived to Dartmouth, has never even been to school with a person of color.</p>

<p>Parentny, I am by no stretch of the imagination a wealthy black person, but my child should also not have to live an existence portrayed in the movie Coach Carter to be deemed what you perceive as being worthy of her place in an Ivy leave school. It seems that you are painting all AA's using verybroad strokes. On many occasions you talk about living in poverty but that has nto stopped you from sending yoru child to one of the most elite private schools in the country because you wanted him/her to have a chance at better opportunities and you are grateful that he/her is able to attend on pretty much a full scholarship. What is it about your story that is different from any other parent black white, green or purple who also wants the best for their child.</p>

<p>These discussions always come back to a AA gor admitted over some one with "higher scores".. How many times has it been discussed in on this forum alone that the admissions process is a wholistic one. </p>

<p>I know first hand that some of my daughters best friends 6th and 12th grade were asian (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean) and every single one of them were in cram school / mega academy from 6th grade through senior year prepping for the test for Stuyvesant or prepping for the SAT. Without all of the prep, D got accepted to Stuyvesant, and turned it down because it really wasn't where she wanted to go to school. Her SAT scores were comprable and higher than some of her asian peers, but all that is going to be said about her that she got a pass because of the color of her skin.</p>

<p>many feel that AA should be based on socioeconomic factors. the colleges have already discussed this even in their breifs to the supreme court that seletion based on SES would not give them the diversity that they are looking for. Elite schools (harvard, Princeton, Williams and recently Yale and Brown) are reaching out and trying to recruit students whose parents make under $60,000 and capping or eliminating loans to get them there. If your look through the common data sets of many eleite schools you willfind that year over year the percentage of full paying students do not radically change . At the end of the day college is still a business and the schools already know that they will have to take "X" number of full paying students and are only going to offer extremely generous financial aid packages to "Y%" of low income students.</p>

<p>The thing that really gets me is the number of non-white people who took advantage of AA (as asians were in attendance in singe digit percentages before AA) now feel that it should be eliminated. If AA were eliminated tommorrow I beleive that all bets would be off and the number of asians at colleges would actually decrease because diversity of any kind would no longer be important to the colllege's mission as the colleges go back to what they were before -being very wealthy and very white.</p>

<p>Okay I may be ignorant and out of line and coming as impolite. I must take a step back and opplozies for my line of questioning.</p>

<p>But why will not we can discuus what Bill Cosby has said about losing opportunity. Is he out of touch too? And with this I must never discuss this URM issue as I must keep quite as not being labeled as someone I am not.</p>

<p>On the subject of Cosby, you might find interesting the views of Ellis Cose, a black Newsweek columnist.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6732651/site/newsweek/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6732651/site/newsweek/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>University of Pennsylvania professor Michael Eric Dyson, who is black, recently published a book about Cosby's statements:</p>

<p>"Of course, the ink and applause Cosby has won rest largely on a faulty assumption: that he is the first black figure to stare down the “pathology” that plagues poor blacks.</p>

<p>But to believe that ignores how figures from black intellectual W.E.B. Du Bois to civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, in varying contexts, with differing results, have spoken controversially about the black poor. </p>

<p>Equally intriguing is the leap of faith one must make in granting Cosby revered status as a racial spokesman and critic. He has famously demurred in his duties as a racial representative.</p>

<p>He has flatly refused over the years to deal with blackness and color in his comedy. Cosby was defensive, even defiant, in his views, as prickly a racial avoider as one might imagine for a man who traded so brilliantly on dimensions of black culture in his comedy. </p>

<p>While Cosby took full advantage of the civil rights struggle, he resolutely denied it a seat at his artistic table. Thus it’s hard to swallow Cosby’s flailing away at youth for neglecting their history, and overlooking the gains paid for by the blood of their ancestors, when he reneged on its service when it beckoned at his door. </p>

<p>It is ironic that Cosby has finally answered the call to racial leadership forty years after it might have made a constructive difference. But it is downright tragic that he should use his perch to lob rhetorical bombs at the poor." <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7681419/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7681419/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"I wish that white and Asian people who think privileged African Americans are just like any privileged white person could spend just one day as a black person. I am sure that they'd quickly see the differences between their normal experiences and the experiences of their socioeconomic peers who are black."</p>

<p>Beautifully said. On the flip side of NSM's post, people assume that I got into good schools because I am intelligent... although the sexist people of the world will say that I got into engineering school because I am a woman. I thought it was because of straight As and a perfect math SAT score, but, no, it must be my gender. I fully sympathize with URMs in that regards - because some people will always assume that you didn't really "deserve" to get in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A poor student of any race who achieves an excellent gpa in a terrible school system and has SATs as low as 1800 (on the new SAT), and has had major family responsibilities such as caring for younger sibs or working a fastfood job to help support their family would be highly desired over a URM with professional parents, lots of APs, decent SATs, a nice gpa, an excellent school system, and nice ECs.
[quote]
</p>

<p>Excuse my ignorance, but having survived the application process this year, I'm not sure I understand this. How does an admissions officer come about knowing his applicant's income level? The schools that could pay such a low income applicant's way are generally the ones that are need-blind; thus they wouldn't know the numbers associated with his past or upbringing...</p>

<p>Bill Cosby is a comedian.
He is very funny.
Why would anyone expect anything more than that from him?
Do white people look to ... Jay Leno for leadership? He is famous, he is funny, and he is white, but not a spokesperson for the race. </p>

<p>It is a recurring falacy when admissions disappointments are attributed to affirmative action. Remember, as has been pointed out many times, most students at the elite colleges are white, many of the remainder are asian. The average family income at the elite colleges is much higher than the national average. Only a small proportion of students at the elite colleges come from lower middle class or poor families. Princeton, with its generous financial aid, enrolls one of the lowest percentages of students eligible for Pell grants of any selective college. </p>

<p>If a student with excellent grades and test scores gets rejected from a dream school, it is most likely that the slot was filled by a white student, probably upper middle class. So why select a group that is already a small minority at the school and point the finger at them as the reason for the rejection? </p>

<p>Recognize that if a top school, say Harvard, were to eliminate ALL African Americans from the school, including those deemed "qualified" by those who complain about affirmative action, it would have little effect on admissions prospects for other applicants. Some ball park numbers. Harvard had 22,276 applications this year. They accepted 2,074 students, including about 200 african americans. Now suppose they offered admission to none of them, the total admit pool would remain 2,074, and 200 different kids would have been admitted. So instead of a 2074/22276=9.31% admission rate, these kids would face a 2074/22076=9.39% admission rate. This gain of 0.08% is the improvement in admissions rate for everyone else if Harvard decided not to admit ANY african americans. The low chances of admissions to places like Harvard is not due to affirmative action. </p>

<p>Can't people who attribute their admissions disappointment to this policy see that they are being manipulated?</p>

<p>
[quote]
A poor student of any race who achieves an excellent gpa in a terrible school system and has SATs as low as 1800 (on the new SAT), and has had major family responsibilities such as caring for younger sibs or working a fastfood job to help support their family would be highly desired over a URM with professional parents, lots of APs, decent SATs, a nice gpa, an excellent school system, and nice ECs. </p>

<p>Excuse my ignorance, but having survived the application process this year, I'm not sure I understand this. How does an admissions officer come about knowing his applicant's income level? The schools that could pay such a low income applicant's way are generally the ones that are need-blind; thus they wouldn't know the numbers associated with his past or upbringing...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hi Gphoenix,</p>

<p>You must remember that the college application does ask information about the student. A person that works to help out the family is most likely going to have his/her job listed on the application. In addition the information will most likely show up in his/her recommendations, or essays. </p>

<p>In addition when the school turns in therr school profile it does list information as the following:
% of kids getting reduced/free lunch
% of kids that graduate and attend 4 year colleges
Average SAT scores for that school
Since an overwhelming number of students attend their local high schools, many adcoms are familiar with the schools int he areas that they represent including the SES of students that live in that and the surrounding neighborhoods. Also remember that on the first page of the common app it does ask what your parents do for a living and their highest level of education.</p>

<p>Even though admissions and financial aid applications are considered separately at places like Harvard, adcoms can figure out income through:</p>

<ol>
<li>The student's statements in essays and interviews.</li>
<li>Zip code, address</li>
<li>Reports from Guidance Counselors, teachers and alum interviewers</li>
<li>Parents' jobs and levels of educations.</li>
<li>ECs. For example, a student may have participated in programs for low income students. For example, most teens who use Boys and Girls Club are low income. Similarly, students who participate in expensive summer programs or have hobbies like polo playing probably are high income.</li>
</ol>