Interesting observation about the gay-bashing, @“Cardinal Fang” . Seems to be backed up by the experience of @iaparent ‘s son, although that case didn’t end so well.
My son is a chip off the old block, which is probably a curse in most ways. ? But he will never drink, and only be with the woman he will eventually marry. No need to talk to him about consent, but will probably talk to him about spotting these types of behaviors and stepping in if he feels the need.
Which brings me to a point that was interesting about iaparent’s son. I remember hearing guys talk about stuff in high school and knew something was off, but didn’t have the wherewithal to address it. In most instances, I don’t think it would have helped, but I was too young to be a good advocate, unlike iaparent’s.
This is why everyone should support the new proposals regarding Title IX investigations that put the rights of the accused as being equal to the rights of the complainant, rather than favoring the complainant as they are now. Shockingly, some people are against this.
@iaparent, That’s a horrible story. I’m so sorry to hear that you and your son went through that terrible experience. Other than the lying accuser not making a false accusation, what do you think should have happened differently?
Should your son not have tried to make sure his friend had consent from the very drunk woman?
Does your son think maybe his intervention caused his friend to think twice about what happened thereafter, possibly preventing the friend from having sex with a woman who was too drunk to consent (if she was)? Or maybe trying to prevent the friend from having sex with a woman who would regret it in the morning? I assume he made the intervention for just that reason.
Should he not have talked to others afterwards about the event?
When the lying accusation was made, how should the administration have handled it? What should they have done differently?
What was the accusation against your son? Why was it actionable? Why would it take three months and all this tsuris to adjudicate “X said Y was a rapist who didn’t actually rape anyone,” if that is the accusation?
Suppose, counterfactually, that your son had actually been guilty of whatever he was accused of. Should that offense be an offense? What would the punishment have been if he’d been guilty? What on earth was the college doing allowing the false accuser to dictate where he lived? That can’t be the right thing to do for an accuser who was cleared.
I can honestly say that, at least since I was 12 or so and these concepts had meaning, I have never been in a situation like you describe. I have never heard another man describe a woman as needing to be raped, or say that he would like to have sex with a woman without her consent, or even say that he knew she wanted it even though she was saying no. I am not suggesting that this never happens in the real world, but it hasn’t happened in my real world.
It certainly used to be a feature of life that a group of men would comment on the attractiveness of the women they knew, and express opinions on whether or not they would want to have sex with this or that woman. That hasn’t happened in years. For one, everyone I know is older, but more importantly it’s almost a complete social taboo to do that now. Anyone starting that conversation would be ssshed out of it immediately.
@iaparent Your story is really scary/depressing…and especially the "not guilty’ part of it…it doesn’t matter that the accusation was senseless…the taint, if you will, doesn’t fade.
My son is a kind, sensitive, mature human being. Should I teach him “not to be a predator”? Certainly not. However, he is not immune from bad judgement calls, so I tell him: don’t have casual sex with women you haven’t been dating, and if you have, make 100% sure she is willing and sober. Plus make sure you know how much you can drink and still keep all your wits about you. And avoid dating women with questionable ethics.
I’m glad to hear that. It sounds like in some social groups what was formerly normal is now shunned.
We know that in other social groups this kind of misogyny is still normalized, unfortunately (eg some parts of Reddit and 4chan, anywhere where “men’s rights advocates” hang out, lots of other places), but great that it’s now not acceptable in your social group.
The issue comes down to consent and at what point is someone too drunk 1) to make an informed consent or so drunk 2) that they consent and then have buyer’s remorse in the morning or 3) allegedly consented but can’t remember in the morning. It boils down to personal responsibility.
I am appalled and disgusted by the treatment of @iaparent ‘s son. The fact that a woman’s comments and accusations are taken as fact with out any actual evidence is incredibly problematic and violates his due process rights and his right to face his accuser.
The #metoo movement has its good points but there is a detrimental side as well: men are refusing to mentor women, travel with them, lunch with them etc. Unintended consequences.
There are too many false accusations under title IX, and they are almost exclusively against male students. That’s why rape investigations should be handled by the police (who have the tools and experience to deal with it) , not a campus board. That being said, the number of actual rapes is still appalling, and women (and some men) put themselves are risk by drinking excessively or taking drugs. We would not have so many issues if the students had better judgement.
@“Cardinal Fang” completely disagree with your statement. My husband and many of his friends who own their own companies/businesses will not travel with, lunch with or have meetings with a woman alone. Nor will they allow their subordinates to do so on company time. Men are in positions of power in most industries. You can dismiss it if you want with a comment like you made but young women so at their own risk. Promotions and advancements are as much about knowing the right people as skill sets. I know men who don’t hire women at all anymore.
This is true, but what is the point of saying it? We want to have fewer rapes. We don’t live in a reality where teenagers have good judgment, and we never will.
Agree women should be aware that being drunk is higher risk - and this is a discussion we have had in depth with our own daughter - but what about the woman who was only going to have one drink, or was just drinking soda, and someone slipped something in? Do you blame her for just being at a party in the first place? For being in a mixed group of friends? For not going straight to her dorm room after class and staying there? You can be careful as you want but predators find a way. If the best you can hope for is that the predator finds a different victim, that is a shocking indictment on campus culture.
And this is also why consequences matter. The culture of the college matters. When a college protects its football stars at the expense of its female students, it sends a message. When a Brock Turner is convicted, it sends a different message. Not everyone dismisses the victim because she had too much to drink. At which of those two colleges do you think a guy contemplating taking advantage of a drunk female thinks twice about it?
In the survey we’re discussing, almost two-thirds of the women who say they were raped say they were under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time. However, the survey instructs women to say they were under the influence if they believe they were given drugs without their consent. We can’t tell (as far as I can determine) what percentage of the women say they were given drugs without their consent or knowledge and then raped, versus women who say they voluntarily became intoxicated and then were raped.
At neither, @Sj2727, because the males involved are almost always drunk too. And this isn’t the Victorian era, women are not “taken advantage of”. They are, or should be, mature adults responsible for their own safety, just like men are presumed to be. If you are too drunk to know if you are getting in an actual Uber or not, or if you are having sex with someone or not, you are in a very bad position.
I’ve noticed the difference, cardinal fang, as have all of my 30something nieces. Professional men are very guarded around female colleagues in many places. Just smart to take precautions, and why bother putting yourself at risk?