<p>I remain hopeful but not yet convinced that S will get a great education at Berkeley. Much of it will depend on his own choices. Will he make decisions that lead to maximizing a quality education? I don't know. >></p>
<p>Momof2inca: Isn't this true of every school? I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that ultimately it is not where a child decides to go to college, but what he/she does when he gets there that matters most.</p>
<p>novice18 - I'm not sure what my daughter's major is, about 10 minutes ago she told me she wanted me to check out what the offerings are at all of the colleges on her list for choreography, after insisting for ages that she didn't want to continue her studies of dance at college. </p>
<p>But she will apply to Berkeley as a Slavic Languages major, and go in with AP credit, most likely placing in intermediate & advanced levels for Russian language. At most (but not all) universities the foreign language departments tend to be smaller, especially for less popular languages.</p>
<p>Garland -- thanks for your message, but I have to give credit where it is due: Carolyn is the person who turned me on to the IPEDS database. I have found it particularly helpful in researching colleges, especially with my daughter's interest in studying Russian. The thing we have to be wary of is that a lot of colleges have dropped their Russian departments in recent years due to declining enrollment - so it is very important to us to have good info on the numbers.</p>
<p>Momof2:
I may see you August 21st and your write up is similar to my feelings. There were other schools my husband and I (and oldest D) felt would be better for D2. She has attended a smaller school (450) and has wonderful intense relationships with many teachers, she'll miss that at Cal.</p>
<p>When she visited a prestigious LAC back east, she returned saying, yes, it would be a continuation of the high school style (with 5x the kids) yet she felt she was ready to move up and out and into the big, real world.</p>
<p>She could not attend orientation and has not yet figured out her schedule, but I had to laugh when she told me she did not understand why it was so hard to get the classes she wanted (many were full for the kids who did not get phase I advisor codes until all on campus registrations were done!)- her friend who already attends Cal just tells his advisor which classes he wants and he gets them all!! Argh! She has been talking with a varsity athlete friend to get all the scoop, I wonder if she yet realises how different her life will be from his- same housing, but she's a triple, he had a suite with a walk-in closet as a freshman! They do pamper the Varsity athletes there!</p>
<p>She has wanted to attend Cal for months and months, whereas we are all approaching it with trepidation....after a campus visit.....please keep shaving your legs, please don't pierce anything not already pierced :D She is 100% sure it'll be great, and with that attitude it ought to be. We are, like you about 70%.......what happens to the psyche when almost every kid has 1400+ SATs and 4.+++ GPA yet classes limit As to 15%.......that is a lot of self-image re-evaluation that will be going on for 85% of the kids who've never gotten a B in a class before, let alone a C!</p>
<p>It should be an interesting ride and I think the attitude and self-confidence of the student will make a huge difference in the results. I think my D will do fine, but I know that the personal attention at her small high school allowed her to truly reach her potential and that simply does not happen that often, that one really and truly reaches tehir potential....it was incredible to see. I don't expect that to occur at Cal, maybe, but maybe not. I was voting for LAC type of schools :)</p>
<p>somemom, if it's any consolation my son turned down Berkeley in favor of a small LAC, which he attended for 2 years - he will not return. He tried to transfer back into UC Santa Cruz as an environmental studies major -something not offered at his LAC - but he didn't have the prerequisites and that is an impacted major - plus he applied the year that the UCs were oversubscribed and turning away eligible freshman applicants - so of course he didn't get in. Of course Berkeley is totally out of reach for him at this point. I feel that my son outgrew his LAC, both in terms of its size, and because he developed interests in areas that were outside the offerings of his particular college. I don't think my son regrets having turned down Berkeley, but only because he has since spent some time working on the campus, and came to the conclusion that he would not like studying there. But my point is - the LAC had its limitations, the primary one being that it wasn't large enough to accomodate my son's changing interests and focus. </p>
<p>I personally would have preferred UC Santa Cruz for my son from the outset - at least among the UC's - as I could alway see that UCSC was a better fit - but because of the prestige thing, he really only considered Berkeley. But my d's in-state choices may come down to Berkeley, UCSC & Santa Barbara - and for her, I think Berkeley is probably the best fit. It's just a matter of personality - d. is very outgoing and proactive, always involved in something new. I think she really needs an urban environment -- I'd say that my daughter is an extremely active person who thrives in a high-stimulation setting. </p>
<p>So I don't know what your daughter is like, but I am pretty sure that a kid who goes to Berkeley with a gung-ho attitude is going to do just fine. She may run into some unexpected obstacles -- but I know that every time I encountered red tape or bureucratic barriers in the UC system, I just cheerfully viewed it as a game-like problem I had to solve, and prided myself on my ability to get around or past all of the various rules and policies that I found inconvenient. </p>
<p>The cool thing about a school like Berkeley is that even if your daughter doesn't get her first choice classes, there are hundreds of classes to choose from. Sometimes that leads in unexpected directions -- it's probably part of the reason why UC undergrads often have a hard time deciding on a major. In contrast, when my son couldn't get a desired class at his LAC, his remaining choices of what was open was very limited --and he found out the hard way that a small, seminar style class is no fun for a student who doesn't want to be there. (At least with a huge lecture class, no one is taking attendance).</p>
<p>Anyway, I think both your daughter and Momof2inca's son will be fine, because they are going where they want to be, and being at Berkeley is kind of like being in the middle of a huge, bustling marketplace -- you may not always get what you want, but you'll never get bored and you'll never go hungry.</p>
<p>CalMom:</p>
<p>Speaking of unusual classes, when my daughter's first appointment time came, she was away at a lake with friends, no internet (the notification came only the day before, so no way to plan.) So, mom had to login and navigate the telebears sign up......almost every freshman seminar that did not conflict with other courses was full, a new one came on the system and it was film studies- so I signed her up...hey any frosh seminar is better than none, film studies could be interesting, right? It did not say what films, but now she found out, it is films of the frozen north, scandanavian films- that ought to be an interesting one...who knows, she could love it!</p>
<p>Yeah, D has the right attitude and had a great acceptance at an LAC. I am not sure how to put this, such that it won't sound non-PC- if you are gay, do not take offense, it is not meant to offend, simply to state a reality! The LAC back east was waaay too gay for her.....she did not want to play on a sport team where the girls were dating each other, that was just too far out of her zone....so, um, yeah, she's at Berkeley...yeah, hmm. Really, I think it was the heavily gay team/school in a very small setting. With 25k undergrads, there is bound to be some one like you and some one not like you everywhere you go. The LAC was too "not like her" with not enough other different people. She will have a chance at Berkeley to be "not" like thousands of kids and like hundreds....that should give her a chance to both stretch her horizons and find a meeting of the mind with others.</p>
<p>Hey Somemom, I ended up taking a full course on Ingmar Bergman as an undergrad at UC Davis - I liked the basic film course so I wanted to sign up for an advanced course, and the Bergman course was what was offered. Wild Strawberries, The Seventh Seal, etc. Having taken that course added tremendously to my later appreciation of Woody Allen's Love & Death. </p>
<p>One thing I have to say - 35 years later, I have vivid memories of all the unusual or fun classes I took in colleges, like my film classes. I made it a point every quarter to take at least one class "for fun" or because it was something different or kind of interesting - that's how I ended up taking classes like archeaology as well. There was always something interesting to choose from. I think that was one of the issues at my son's college - every class was serious, with students expected to put in full effort - so I saw him getting A's in the classes he chose, but not doing so well in the classes that he was stuck with. His college guaranteed everyone at least 2 of their first choices - registration involved indicating 1st choice, etc. - but it was filling in the schedule at the end that caused the problem and almost guaranteed that all students would have at least one class they really wanted, but also end up with at least one that was among the least popular at the school. </p>
<p>Given your daughter's feelings, I hope that she is not living at Foothill (where the gay themed housing is). Otherwise, I think that she will be fine with Berkeley -- of course Berkeley is an accepting place for gays, but it certainly is not gay-dominated, way too many "others" -- with "other" being pretty much an assortment of every possible ethnic, religious, political, etc., group you can imagine.</p>
<p>CalMom: She has no problem with people being gay, so it won't be a big deal, but visiting the LAC was like being popped down in the tenderloin district of SF, it was pretty "out there" PDA and it was "teammates" which she had never really thought about before. So, no, not foothill, but she likes being surrounded by diversity, I think she did not like being such an obvious minority ;) That's the shoe on the other foot when people first discover themselves in the mid-expanding situation where they are the minority.....we've heard that one from my other D who is a science major at an already heavily Asian UC, but in science & engineering it can be 90% Asian people who are speaking Asian languages. She would't be so aware if every one was speaking English :P</p>
<p>Hey calmom, my sister has her JD from Boalt too....Small world I guess. She loved it there. And she was Harvard undergraduate...and liked Cal much better than Harvard FWIW.</p>
<p>I had a friend in law school who did a 1-year exchange with Harvard law. Big mistake - he hated it there - was very happy to return to Boalt. But that's probably something specific to the "culture" of the law schools, not necessarily the entire campuses.</p>
<p>The "fit" thing again:).</p>
<p>Wow lol I will be attending ucb this fall as a freshman, coming from out of state, and this thread has really scared me with all of its "not worth it out of state" posts. For me, the choice came down to ucb (film studies major) and nyu (tisch dramatic writing), the latter costing nearly 50k, with much much less aid than what was needed for a middle class kid like me to attend! I guess the comforting thing is that film studies at ucb is a small department, and I'm planning to work hard and do whatever it takes to graduate in three years. Oh, and the cost is 10k less the first yr because I'm a spring admit. I really hope everything works out. <em>crosses fingers</em></p>
<p>Things will work out. Parents like to worry.:) You will have a great experience. Go to office hours. Make connections with your profs and TAs. Enjoy.</p>
<p>pinkearmuffs - even tho I said UCB wouldn't be my cup of tea for undergrad, it clearly IS yours. You have also thought through how you're going to take advantage of what's there. Your credentials must be impressive. So do as you say - work hard and do what it takes. Then do what dstark says - go to office hours, connect with your profs. Then do the most important thing dstark says - Enjoy! Come back and tell us how it's going.</p>
<p>Novice18:
Dh and I are Cal alumni, and we're still faithful Cal Bears. We've raised our two kids here in the SF Bay Area. :)</p>
<p>Our dd is a junior at UC Santa Cruz, but has taken summer classes at Cal. Although the UCSC campus is a better fit temperament-wise, she absolutely loved the older student population on the Berkeley campus and the richness of life experience that the older students brought to her classes. I think she's appreciated that aspect more as an older student herself. As a freshman, she was deadset against applying to Cal. Both of her parents graduated from Cal, so of course, she didn't want to apply. She was looking for a less intense, more personalized environment than what Cal had to offer. </p>
<p>To be a successful undergrad at Cal, students need a helluva lot of self-confidence and self-direction. A student who finds him/herself floundering at Cal will seek out alternatives pretty quickly (take time off to work, fewer classes, change of major, gap year, transfer, etc.). It's too competitive to waste your time trying to find yourself at Cal. The ones who make it to graduation, get on board pretty quickly, find a niche, and persevere all the way through. </p>
<p>Our son is planning to apply to Cal this Fall. He will also apply to San Francisco State University. As someone born and raised in the Bay Area, he is familiar with the campus cultures, and he is at ease with the cultural climates of both cities. If he doesn't get into Cal as a freshman, he's already told us that he plans to transfer as a junior. We'll see. If by some miracle, he does get into Cal, I think it'll be a good fit. As someone mentioned earlier, he is the type of person who does not need hand-holding, which is an essential trait for Cal.</p>
<p>pink, I think that "not worth it" comment needs to be qualified with, "assuming you have a less costly, equivalent alternative". Between NYU & UC I'd say that UC is the better value, either way - at least with respect to most departments. NYU has all the same drawbacks (big school, impersonal) - plus the additional drawback of no sense of campus -- at least there is a very strong sense of place at UC. Neither of my kids has applied to NYU for that reason -- both were intrigued, but when it came down to it, NYU didn't seem to offer anything for them that wasn't available at Cal. Except for NY city, of course, which I think is the major draw. (Before I get flamed, I am sure that there are some departments and majors that I don't know about that are better at NYU than Berkeley - but my point is that there's not much hand-holding going on at either place.)</p>
<p>So I think you should interpret our "not worth it" comments to mean that Berkeley doesn't offer the same sort of amenities that a small, private college does. No matter how you cut it, it is a large public university, and it needs to be compared with the top flagship universities of other states, like U of Virginia or U. of Michigan. For most students with such alternatives, its not worth leaving their home state. I will grant you dispensation on that comparison though, seeing as you are in Plano Texas. I think UT Austin is a great college. But I, too, fled Texas for California as an out-of-state student, as did my brother after me, for reasons that I think only an out-of-place intellectual born and raised in Texas can truly understand. (Its the added, 'get-me-out-of-Texas' value.... priceless)</p>
<p>Calmom, lol! >> "(Its the added, 'get-me-out-of-Texas' value.... priceless)"</p>
<p>pink:</p>
<p>its the $40k price tag that makes Cal extremely expensive for OOS. For that money, you could attend an excellent private college with lots of other stuff, like personalized attn. I'm not a big fan of NYU (think it's over-rated due to Manhattan and the Olsen twins), but Cal is a fantastic public school, as are UMich, UVa, and UNC-Chapel Hill. But, again, for that kind of money, I'd recommend a private, like USC for film. In-state, UCLA.</p>
<p>pink, I went to Cal for undergrad many years ago. I received personal attention from professors. Have things really changed?
A friend of mine dated a professor. That's probably changed. :)</p>
<p>I was talking to somebody very high up in the education field a few weeks ago. I was told that Berkeley is still one of the best schools in the country for undergrad. At the top. Reading these posts, you wouldn't think that.</p>
<p>How many people on this board have read the book "Snobbery", by Epstein. </p>
<p>My daughter has spent only one year at Michigan, but she has received plenty of personal attention from professors. A relative of mine has spent a year at Stanford and has received less attention. He does have a 3.9 gpa. :)</p>
<p>haha calmom, you're absolutely right about the get-me-out-of-texas value. I was born in canada and lived there for a few years; then by some strange twist of fate my family ended up in alabama and it was get-me-out-of alabama! (luckily we got ourselves outta there quick). Then came the move to plano, texas, where sightseeing involves wal-mart followed by a local playground. It's a nice town, really, with its green grass and tall-as-a-mailbox trees, but I always imagined it as a springboard for better things to come.</p>
<p>"I will grant you dispensation on that comparison though, seeing as you are in Plano Texas. I think UT Austin is a great college. But I, too, fled Texas for California as an out-of-state student, as did my brother after me, for reasons that I think only an out-of-place intellectual born and raised in Texas can truly understand. (Its the added, 'get-me-out-of-Texas' value.... priceless)"</p>
<p>Worthy of my "Smile of the day" post.</p>