<p>Help! my east coast s has never been to cali and he's obsessed with UCB. Can anyone tell me what the school is like in terms of social life, academics, housing and liberal/conservative bent?</p>
<p>UCB has got to be among the most famous uber liberal schools in the world. While this holds true, other influences are also at play. The school is now dominated by Asians (40% plus). As the other UCs, it has major financial woes now so classes that have always been large are getting even larger. Most are taught by TAs. Expect huge (several hundred) class sizes for most classes the first 2 years. There is a lot of "weeding" in competitive majors so the curve is brutal and it's hard to get a high GPA. Less than 40% graduate in 4 years and that number is also in decline. Only 9% are from oo state, so you're dealing with the best and brightest middle class kids from CA. There is not a lot of diversity. Very few blacks.</p>
<p>That said, the grad programs are still among the best in the world and Berkeley attracts greats profs. Berkeley itself is a great city with lots to do , great food, interesting people.</p>
<p>I would have a hard time paying the almost $40K oos for an undergrad education there, but would pay for most grad schools in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>Hate to disagree with zagat, but....</p>
<ul>
<li>no longer so liberal -- the Young Republicans Club is reported to be the biggest on campus, and growing.<br></li>
<li>All Frosh and transfers guarateed housing, but it's more expensive than the neighboring apartments and they, too, are expensive.<br></li>
<li>More economic diversity than you'll find in any other highly ranked school; ~33% low income (not "middle class"), and more Pell grantees than anywhere.</li>
<li>Great school spirit, so social life is good.</li>
<li>4-yr graduation statistics are misleading since, due to economic diversity, many kids have to work to pay the bills. If you want to graduate in 4 years or less, it's not difficult to accomplish.</li>
<li>Profs teach the classes, but TA's do run discussion/lab sections.</li>
<li>Would suggest a high gpa is easier at Cal than at Cornell, which has the same grade deflation tendencies.</li>
</ul>
<p>But, I do agree it's not worth the $40k for OOS.</p>
<p>My cousin attend UCB several years ago. This was her take on the place:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Very top notch professors. However, you may not really get to meet them till your junior year. Lots of TAs teach lower division classes.</p></li>
<li><p>As said above, some majors are brutal. Very tough curve to get into and stay into some majors.</p></li>
<li><p>Out of state tuition is very high. Whether is is worth it or not is debatable.</p></li>
<li><p>LARGE classes. Most intro classes were huge. Even some junior year classes weren't that small.</p></li>
<li><p>As far as grad school, I had a friend get their MBA there. He thought is was very good and very tough.</p></li>
<li><p>Great area to go to school. Lots of things to do, lots of good restaurants, and lots of activities. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Both people I know like the school a lot. However, if you are a kid that doesn't thrive on big schools or large impersonal classes, it may not be the right place for you.Likewise, there are a lot of private schools that my friends thought would have been better for the price of out of state students.</p>
<p>"- no longer so liberal -- the Young Republicans Club is reported to be the biggest on campus, and growing."</p>
<p>I always been puzzled by statements that espoused the view that there is a LARGE presence of republicans at Cal. For one, you would assume that the republican organizations would be VERY proud to show some statistics. So, I spent a few minutes googling the subject. </p>
<p>
[quote]
In recent years, the Berkeley college Republican chapter has grown and thrived. Once only a few dozen in number, the chapter now boasts more than 500 members and is one of the biggest student organizations on campus...
<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/902184/posts%5B/url%5D">http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/902184/posts</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You would also assume that the web site of the "thriving" organization would be keen to show pictures of their well-attended meetings. Let's look:</p>
<p>I would make an uneducated guess that a meeting for the support of spaying pets would gather a larger audience and a larger recruiting table than the ones shown in the pictures. </p>
<p>The only meeting that would draw a smaller attendance would be a meeting of all faculty that ranges from declared conservatives to the ones who accept non-liberal ideologies. </p>
<p>As far as the quality of the undergraduate, let's read the opinion of Thomas Sowell, available at <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/choosingcollege/sowell-choosing/chpter02.html#TEACHING%20VERSUS%20RESEARCH%5B/url%5D">http://www.leaderu.com/choosingcollege/sowell-choosing/chpter02.html#TEACHING%20VERSUS%20RESEARCH</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
The University of California at Berkeley is unsurpassed as a research institution, its faculty have received many Nobel Prizes, its graduate programs rank above those of Harvard in several fields, and Berkeley is often rated number one among the nation's universities. However, none of this translates into an outstanding undergraduate education. At Berkeley, there are estimated to be more than twice as many graduate students teaching as at Harvard. In addition, Berkeley has large numbers of part-time junior faculty, who support themselves by having other jobs-and therefore other demands on their time besides teaching. Finally, the huge size of the university-more than 30,000 students-ensures that undergraduate education is impersonal, bureaucratic, and sometimes chaotic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While the quoted article is easily older than 10 years, one ought to wonder how much improvement has been made, or could be expected in light of the dwindling resources of a UC system that is becoming more and more dependent -if that is possible- from the largesse of the federal government to meet its obligations.</p>
<p>Xiggi, the two people that I know who attended UCB seem to echo your comments. If I had a top student who could get into top private and state schools, I, for one, would NOT send them to UCB as an undergrad, especially from out of state. Graduate school would be a different matter though.</p>
<p>The town of Berkeley is very liberal. The student body is more of a mixed bag. Thomas Sowell's remarks are slightly dated.</p>
<p>The people that I know that are going to Berkeley love the school. I heard one kid say he had trouble getting a class, but he still loves the school. If you go to Berkeley's own web site, you will see that the average student graduates in 4 1/2 years. The kids I know that go there are all going to graduate in 4 years.</p>
<p>Every year my kid's high school sends top notch kids to Berkeley, as well as Stanford and the IVIES. The valedictorian this year turned down Stanford for Berkeley because she liked the atmospere better at Berkeley.</p>
<p>As others have said, Berkeley is not a place for hand-holding. If that is what you need, I wouldn't go there. </p>
<p>It's an exciting place, with tons of energy, and San Francisco close by.</p>
<p>Robert Reich will now be a professor at the school. (I don't know if he will teach undergrads). That might be a turn off for some people. :)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu%5B/url%5D">www.berkeley.edu</a></p>
<p>Go to <a href="http://webcast.berkeley.edu%5B/url%5D">http://webcast.berkeley.edu</a> and you can watch speeches and questions and answers from very interesting people.</p>
<p>Judith Miller is one of the people.</p>
<p>On the issue of class size & who is teaching the class - it really is going to depend on major. If my daughter goes to Berkeley, she will not have large classes in her anticipated major, and she will have AP standing that will put her directly in higher-level courses. I wouldn't want to send her to Berkeley as part of an oversubscribed major -- but it would be wonderful if she could go there with her intended major. It looks like she's have small classes in a small department as her "base" - though of course classes in other subjects and departments might be quite large. But when I was in college, I kind of liked having a combination of large classes and small ones - there are some advantages to the large lecture format. </p>
<p>A good place to find data about various departments at a school is the IPEDS COOL database at <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/%5B/url%5D">http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/</a> - you can look up any college and then see degrees conferred in any specific major. In my daughter's proposed major, last year Berkeley awarded 3 undergraduate degrees. Assuming that to be consistent, its a number that means she will probably get to know her profs very well. Multiply that number by 4 & you've got 12 majors -- even doubling that, its a small number and likely high interaction among the students and faculty. </p>
<p>By contrast, if my daughter wanted to major in biology (another area of interest for her) - the IPEDS database tells me that Berkeley awarded 710 undergrad degrees in biological sciences last year - multiply THAT by 4 and you see that you have way too many biology majors for there to be much in the way of personal attention, especially when you also consider the fact that basic biology courses will be a requirement for pre-meds who may have very different majors. So my guess based on the data is that biology classes at Berkeley must be huge. </p>
<p>What I have tried to impress on my daughter - and I wish others could underestand -- is that any large university is a conglomerate of many departments and many, many different experiences. The personality and interests of a given student will result in very different experiences. Any student with a strong interest that will pull them toward a small community of like-minded individuals -- whether it is an academic, athletic, or other extra-curricular insterest - may experience Berkeley or any other large university as a special place where they have found a close and intimate group of friends.</p>
<p>Now of course that is not everyone's experience - to some, Berkeley is a bustling world that is overwhelming in its numbers and choices. </p>
<p>I spent 3 years at Berkeley, but as a law student, not an undergrad. I loved it there. My walking path toward my classes was over less-populated areas of campus- I generally avoided the bustle of Sather Gate & Telegraph Avenue - so in a way, for me, Berkeley was a very quiet place with nice, park-like open spaces, beautiful views and gorgeous weather. </p>
<p>And yes, I will be delighted if my daughter attends school there - I know she will do well. She has a very outgoing personality and is not likely to be intimidated by a crowd - so I don't worry about her getting whatever attention she wants from faculty, no matter what her choice of major. </p>
<p>And no, I don't think its worth paying out-of-state tuition. But then I don't think any large out-of-state university, public or private, would be worth the added cost either, and both my kids have come to the same conclusion, striking schools like NYU or Boston U off of their lists early on under the basic rationale that if they want to attend a world class, large university - the best value is right here at home.</p>
<p>I agree with most of the criticisms of Berkeley listed above. However, having said that, I must also add that every single Berkeley student I know, both current students and alumni, just love the place. They think it is great; they really enjoyed themselves and are convinced they got a great education.</p>
<p>xiggi:</p>
<p>a small nit to Sowell, hopefully, he meant to write 'relatively'...</p>
<p>Berkeley has more ~3.5 times the number of undergrads than does Harvard (22,000 vs 6,600), so two times the actual number of TA's teaching would be a positive.....</p>
<p>dstark is spot on - the City itself is extremely liberal as the city council led by some folks left over from the 60's. But, the campus, with a 40% asian population.......</p>
<p>OP:</p>
<p>if you want an opinion from an unhappy camper at Berkeley, search for posts by sakky....</p>
<p>OP: although others have alluded to it, out of state admissions to Berkeley are incredibly difficult (about a 21% admit rate for out of state applicants). You really have to have all of your balls in a row to get in as an out of state student - top grades, top test scores, top talent/extracurriculars. </p>
<p>I would tell your son to consider it a lottery school in terms of admissions for out of state students, just as I would consider schools like Harvard, Yale, etc. lottery schools even for top students. That doesn't mean he shouldn't give it a try, but it does mean that he should NOT fixate on UCB simply because the odds of acceptance as an out of state applicant are so low. There are other schools in California, after all. :)</p>
<p>I'll echo the idea that Cal can be a great school for a certain type of kid. But, unlike Coureur, I've met my share of kids who were not particularly happy there.</p>
<p>As the parent of a current Berkeley student I feel somewhat qualified to answer this question. My DD loves this school, and she turned down a couple of Ivy league/East Coast schools to attend Cal. Her roomates turned down Duke and Stanford to go to Cal, one from out of state. She has had both large(over 200) and small (18) classes, all class sessions are taught by professors, the sessions are run by TA's so she has experienced all aspects of the learning situation. School spirit is awesome, Cal had a great football team last year, and has everything that a major university could offer. Yes, the town is quirky, seems to be run by leftovers from the 60's. The good news is that the kids going to school there are more into studying than protesting, in fact my DD was surprised at how apathetic most students were during the fall presidential election. That said, it is a large university, the statistic about most students taking 5 years to graduate is a little misleading- a large percentage of students take a junior year abroad. These students are still counted in the undergraduate population, yet they are obviously not on campus. My DD's freshman class had 3,700 students. Thus the current - on-campus undergraduate population is probably under 16,000. The campus does not seem crowded, like UCLA, because it is spread out over a beautiful hillside. Again, this is probably not the best school for a very sheltered, shy child, that can't make their own way, but my daughter is loving the challenging environment.</p>
<p>Excellent post, Socal. Thanks for sharing!</p>
<p>
The admit rate for in-state is less than 28% - so while it is true that it is harder for an out-of-state applicant to get in, statistically it is not that much harder - basically, an out of stater has a little more than a one-in-five chance of getting in, in in-stater has a little better than a one-in-four chance of making it. Those comparative stats hold true for all campuses - it is slightly harder for out-of-staters, but the admit rates for out-of-staters are going to be within about 10% of the rates for in-staters. It's just that a California is a big state and just about every top student in California applies to the UC system -- and the application procedures are set up to encourage students to apply to several campuses -- so the pool of in-staters is just a whole lot larger. </p>
<p>Or to put it a different way: the differential between rate of admission for out-of-state applicants at the UCs as compared to in-state applicants is far less than the differential between ED and RD admissions at most of the highly selective private colleges that offer ED. So I woudn't be too discouraged by the numbers. </p>
<p>Though again, it kind of depends on the major.</p>
<p>I really appreciate all the feedback. I have the impressions that the size of classess and the intensity of the competition depends on the major. Can you tell me what your daughter's major is?</p>
<p>My S will be a freshman at Cal this fall in a very popular (big) major, so I don't have much yet to say about his experience except that he loved his overnight orientation a few weeks ago, got all the classes he wanted (so far... they register for the second half of their fall units online in the near future), got his first choice in dorm/room assignment and can't wait to get started in four short weeks. </p>
<p>Coming from a small public high school, he is looking forward to the big university experience and doesn't mind the idea of nobody there to hold his hand and show him the path. He likes to find his own way. Big lecture classes with big name professors appeal to him at this point, as does the idea of smaller classes in his major later on. That might change, who knows? He says the TAs that lead his discussion groups (poly sci major) will likely be brilliant because Cal is so highly regarded for grad school. I still think it would be better to be in smaller classes with brilliant professors from the get-go, but oh well... he chose Cal over UChicago and there is no way to ever know which would have been the better choice, though it saved us $80,000 that we'll apply to grad or law school (which is where he is convinced he'll find that personal attention and smaller community anyhow... not sure if that will be the case).</p>
<p>Coming from a solidly middle to upper-middle class school/home/community, he also likes the socio-economic and racial diversity at Cal. At his orientation many, many incoming students raised their hands when asked if they would be the first to go to college in their families or if they were born in a different country. As a white kid, he says it will be interesting to be in the minority (which was not the case at his high school).</p>
<p>I remain hopeful but not yet convinced that S will get a great education at Berkeley. Much of it will depend on his own choices. Will he make decisions that lead to maximizing a quality education? I don't know. I think a great education is available at Cal, but like at most of the rest of the universities in the U.S., even Harvard, it's what you make of the opportunities. S has always been a self-directed, stubborn learner with a really wide range of general interests and one or two very narrow and deep intellectual passions. The vast array of offerings at a place like Berkeley, combined with the overall atmosphere of the school and community, convinced him he could satisfy both his general and specific interests. </p>
<p>As for the graduating in four years statistics, I don't really put a lot of stock in those particular numbers. In my experience, students who really needed to graduate in four years (i.e. their parents were cutting them off financially in four years) were able to do it without much trouble. Most of my friends chose to stay an extra semester or two because college was a heck of a lot of fun and more appealing than finding a job or applying to grad school, especially if they could milk their parents by telling them sob stories about impacted majors and not getting certain classes. I think Cal even has a rule that limits the number of total units an undergrad can take because kids were just staying and staying. People in California are pretty laid back about graduating "on time."</p>
<p>To be honest, I'm about 65% convinced that Cal was the right choice for S. He is 100% convinced. I'm hoping my number goes up over time and that his stays the same!</p>
<p>Cal alum here (grad school and loved it) - You've heard pretty much the whole story here. My only addition would be to note that the parents of happy undergrads (or about to be undergrads) reporting in on this thread all appear to be in-state residents (if I didn't miss anything). To me, that underscores the question of whether the $40K+ is worth it.</p>
<p>Cal undergrad experience would not be my cup of tea at all. But I know many, many California kids who fully understand the scene there - academically, socially, the town, the size - and still have it as their first choice. The issue to me is whether your S is familiar with UCB "as it feels" vs. UCB "as it ranks." If he is familiar with it as it feels - or becomes so by visiting for more than the standard tour/info session - and still wants it, why not try? Because then he'll know if it is HIS cup of tea.</p>
<p>If it is, he has a lottery chance of admission. If it isn't, just tell him to mark his calendar for "four more years" and transfer his UCB obsession to grad school. :D Doubt that you can find many critics of the grad school experience.</p>
<p>oh, and "liberal" is possibly right of center in Berkeley (I lived there for two decades). Certainly, a conservative can find soul-mates, but they will be going against the grain big-time and will have politics/life-style differences strongly in their face pretty much every breath they take. imho.</p>
<p>Momof2inca:</p>
<p>I really appreciate your honesty. My s may be like your s and convinced he can get what he needs from a school like UCB, despite my misgivings. We haven't visited yet, so maybe that's the next step. My s did spend a day at U of Chicago and really liked it. So he's has a basis for comparison as well.</p>
<p>Calmom: OT, but thanks for posting the IPEDS/COOL database. It's fascinating to play with!</p>