<p>Okay, I’ll say it…is it possible that the photo ops SES’ provide for brochures and PC clout are not nearly the same as the photo ops a ‘diversity program’ where …um…physical differences are in plain sight provides. Who wants to see a diversity brochure where the recipients are not immediately differentiated from the ‘norm’.</p>
<p>Thought I posted this a few hours ago, but…</p>
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<p>^ This. There is a shred of animosity toward the perceived snobbery of the Ivy League, but this seems to be because no one knows anyone who went there. It’s a faceless “other” who must be too good for our town, since they’re not here, and anyone too good for our town is a snob. State university should be good enough for anyone. There’s nothing you can get an elite school that you can’t get in-state, except for an ego and a funny accent.</p>
<p>Edit: I checked my post history and I DID post something to this effect about three hours ago. Now it’s gone. Other users here have pointed out that this thread is experiencing technical glitches. Those must still be ongoing.</p>
<p>I think there is a lot of truth to this observation–especially in the midwest, where showing off or acting “too good” for the community is often frowned upon. Listen to Garrison Keillor on Prairie Home Companion. He does a brilliant job of capturing this mindset, even if he sometimes ventures into caricature.</p>
<p>This thread has been really weird to read. People quoting the wrong people, posts out of order or repeated…</p>
<p>Yeah, and getting the notifications that people have posted but then they aren’t there (or don’t show up for hours…).</p>
<p>This is a VERY VERY VERY important point. To expect the GC in the rural high school in Nebraska to know a lot and / or spend the time helping the valedictorian get into an elite school … it’s not the right judgment call for HIM to make when he’s got all these other kids to help.</p>
<p>High school counselors are work force advisors, social workers, mental health counselors and firefighters. Sometimes referees and salesmen.
Helping students discern between elite colleges shouldn’t be a huge part of their day.</p>
<p>There are actually many programs for low income students, to help them stay on track for college, even after acceptance.
But this is where the real doughnut hole comes in, students who are not FrL, but it is too expensive to cover many college applications or AP tests, let alone do college tours or SAT tutoring.
<a href=“http://www.collegeaccess.org/accessprogramdirectory/search.aspx”>http://www.collegeaccess.org/accessprogramdirectory/search.aspx</a></p>
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<p>I do think the above is a major projection, as it confuses “not caring about,” and “no cultural relevance to me” with calling and looking at others, as snobs. There may be a little snobbery involved for some, but it is not even close to the underlying reasons.</p>
<p>It is quite interesting that people who go to these elite schools seem to have a difficult time accepting others do not care to be like them and do not actually care about their existence, so they turn it into a negative. To me, the real negative here is the looking down on others and thinking they require your help and worse that you think they care to be like you. </p>
<p>It just never even occurred to me that somehow I should try to convince someone else what school they should go to because I thought their schools and choices were not as good. It just never crossed my mind. And I am speaking as someone who attended the super elite colleges and a super elite private high school as well. </p>
<p>@dietz199 - There is a term for what you describe, “Symbolism over substance.” No matter, the kids get that it is fake and they actively self-segregate, regardless of what the schools say they are doing. That is the one thing my DS really found startling - so much talk about diversity and then none of that takes place on campus and the college newspaper is replete with articles about one disgruntled group after another, including poor kids who openly do not like rich kids.</p>
<p>I see a lot of poor kid resentment of rich kids in both my kids’ schools too. I don’t think it’s the majority, but there’s certainly a vocal minority who are “offended” or rather choose to be offended that someone else has more. And I’m not talking about “rubbed it in my face” or rude actions / situations. </p>
<p>At one of them, students under $x income pay something like $2k a year (and work study is provided accordingly). I don’t know the exact figure so don’t quote me, but it’s pretty darn nominal for such an elite education. This is one of the most generous schools in the country and the students marched on the prez office to “demand” it be free. I’m happy to be full pay but yk, I work darn hard for that $60k and who the hell are they to “demand” it be free? </p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I responded to your post speculating that I lived among the Elite East in NYC yesterday but it got swallowed up in the technical mess yesterday.</p>
<p>I grew up in a working-class suburb on Long Island, in a Levitt house, surrounded by kids with blue-collar dads who spent their GI Bill money on a little ticky-tacky house on Long Island. But yes, there was a nerd table in my high school, where football was much more important than academics.</p>
<p>My daughter went to a test-in magnet high school in Brooklyn where almost 70 percent of the students are eligible for free lunch, as are over 80 percent city-wide. The median income in NYC is somewhere betwween $50k and $60k. Even in Manhattan it’s below $70k.</p>
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<p>Actually, I think the issue is not the students (“people”) who attend these colleges, but the faculty (‘academic elite’) and the NYT who have the arrogance to not understand that not everyone wants to share those hallowed ivy-colored walls. I would guess 99% of the students who walk the halls really don’t care one way or another. They are just happy to be there.</p>
<p>Perhaps the faculty care so much bcos its a projection of their own personal thinking/values. They strove forever to get to the tony NE colleges, and they just assume that everyone else wants the same? (Pop psychology!)</p>
<p>You are insanely condescending.</p>
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<p>@bluebayou - Thanks for catching that. That was what I was thinking, but wrote it erroneously, as a catch-all. I used to teach at one of those “hallowed” schools, as a grad student and I agree it is the faculty and admin.</p>
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<p>Probably just naive. (And from the NE.)</p>
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<p>Perhaps, but that is the real world. </p>
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<p>But if the parents have never seen “more of the country” how can you claim that they are shielding their kids from something that they know nothing of? (It’s illogical.)</p>
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<p>That was my example and again, it’s the real world (outside of the NE). I used Texas specifically, just to chide my favorite poster – who knows who he is – but also because Techsus is still provincial (and proud of it). A high falutin’ degree from Cornell carries no more weight than one from UT. Heck, I’d argue a degree from UT is more highly valued instate.</p>
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<p>Again, real world. There are not enough slots in the non-shallow colleges (and full rides for all of those low income students) in the top 3% percentiles to go around. Thus, you are being appalled at the selectivity of the non-shallow colleges; in other words their very selectivity makes them appalling to you bcos they exclude many who, according to you, deserve to be there. (See the circular reasoning?)</p>
<p>decca (wasn’t it becca yesterday?), like you I value travel and going outside my comfort zone. So do my kids. But you are revealing your own narrow-mindedness, because you refuse to allow for different ways of looking at the world. And you are only judging selectively–it doesn’t seem to bother you that someone from Boston or NYC stays on the East Coast for college, even though the “elite coastal cities” represent their own bubble. Why not suggest that that student go to Rice in Houston, or Colorado College, or University of Iowa?</p>
<p>Life is not a race. Just because someone doesn’t want to go away for college at age 18 (for whatever reason) does not mean he/she should be condemned. Plenty of people go on to travel, live abroad, or do things they never imagined themselves doing at later points in their lives.</p>
<p>And you are so judgmental about certain parts of the country that it defies comprehension. You really need to get out more.</p>
<p>I think the technical glitches are because the moderators deleted all of @rebecca17 / @becca17’s posts. And now s/he is back as @decca17. I think this is the same ■■■■■ who’s been here before as @linden202 and several other monikers, always playing a different role but always with the same condescending attitude and flat assertion of questionable facts. And always with the same love/hate relationship with elite schools.</p>
<p>As is usual in my postings, this isn’t following the current conversation in the thread, but is my initial response to this thread topic. </p>
<p>Is the problem really that enough poor students aren’t applying, or is the main problem that the colleges can only fund a certain number of full need students? I’ve no doubt that a huge percentage of highly qualified lower SES students aren’t applying to top colleges, but I also think that if more applied the number of them accepted overall won’t likely change much. If more applied, it would just become more competitive than it already is for the lower SES students. I know that some of the most generous are need blind, but I wonder if they would be able to remain need blind if they were to receive a substantial portion of their applications from those needing full aid. I know that’s highly unlikely to happen, but I do think that there is a limit on what they can afford to give in grants.</p>
<p>Although a small sampling, here’s a chart showing the number of QB applicants in recent years and the number of those who were admitted to QB partner colleges. The number of applicants has grown tremendously, but the percent of those accepted has dropped. Again, I think that most (all?) colleges do limit the number of full need students. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.questbridge.org/acceptance-rates”>http://www.questbridge.org/acceptance-rates</a></p>
<p>This may have already been discussed as I haven’t read through the whole thread.</p>
<p>@sally305:</p>
<p>People can choose whatever life they want.</p>
<p>However, if a kid goes to a no-name directional because he thinks that it’s as good as the state flagship or elite private but then later decides to break in to an industry where having the no-name directional on his resume is a drawback (compared to a state flagship or elite private that he could have gotten in to), that would be a bit tragic, no?</p>
<p>I am a silent lurker and don’t post much, but I kind of agree with decca17. Here is an ancedotal example, last year my DD’s counselor suggested to look at local community college and local & state universities instead of looking for colleges outside of our midwest state. Had I paid attention to the counselor my DD would not have been attending MIT this fall. Some GCs in average public schools are really not equipped to guide high performing kids. Again this is just an ancedote.</p>
<p>Which industry would that be PurpleTitan?</p>
<p>Decca17, you can’t take a $10,000 loan every year as a student unless you have a cosigner.</p>
<p>Indeed, @SoMuch2Learn. You can literally count on one hand the number of schools with an endowment big enough that they can afford to fill their student body with 100% full-need students. And those schools wouldn’t do that anyway in part because
- A lot of the best students come from upper-middle class and rich backgrounds.
- Rich families & alums are the lifeblood of their endowment. They have zero interest in jeopardizing their future viability in the name of social justice.</p>
<p>@decca17: you really seem to have no idea how competitive it is to get in to the top colleges these days. Being 97th-99th percentile from a disadvantaged background definitely does <em>not</em> make you a shoo-in in to any of the top 30.</p>