<p>SBmom and dke-
Could you clarify? Do you consider the summer programs for gifted kids (Duke TIP, Johns Hopkins, etc) summer nerd camp for rich kids, or do you feel it has any value with respect to things that might get listed on a college app.? They do offer need-based scholarships, so it is not completely pre-college for the smart kids with $$. It does have the SAT requirements, as opposed to the "hiking the Himalayas and rafting the Rhone" type trips. Your thoughts??</p>
<p>If you really want to do an academic prgram then do it. But dont do it to look "good on an app". While a really unusual opportunity or award may get listed on your applications, do not choose how you are going to spend your time and money trying to 2nd guess college admissions.
My daughter did exactly what she wanted to summers without any conscious thought on how it would look and she was admitted to all the schools she applied to.
That is what schools are looking for, students who have energy and interest to do something for the experience, not for how it looks.
( I guess I emphasized that enough!)
BTW I think Hiking the Himalaya would be an amazing experience, and you would certainly have to be dedicated to do something like that, and especially if you wrote a compelling essay it would certainly stand out.</p>
<p>emeraldkity-
Whew. Maybe I didn't word my question very well. Let me see if I can do better this time. I fully agree that kids should spend their summer doing what they might enjoy (although I am not too keen on the idea of my s. sleeping in til 1, playing video games and yakking on line with his friends as his sole summer activity). And I agree too that you shouldn't pick a summer program <em>solely</em> for the purpose of how it will look on an app. What I was asking was if they lumped the gifted programs in the same category as teen tours? I merely used the Himalayas and Rhone line as cute alliteration, but I guess teen tour would have done the trick as well.... My s. took a debate class last summer to see if he'd like it. He didn't decide to pursue the debate team at school, but he sure is harder to argue with these days :) This summer, he is thinking about spending more time at the homeless shelter he volunteers at, not because he thinks it'll look good, but because he genuinely enjoys it.</p>
<p>jym - I had the same feeling you did, that fabulous academic programs, many heavily sibsidized or free, were getting unfairly lumped in with expensive programs that anyone with enough bucks could go to in hopes of padding their resume. </p>
<p>The summer programs for gifted kids, plus research programs like RSI (free to qualifiers), plus highly selective programs like Olympiad training camps (also free to qualifiers), plus academic programs like PROMYS or Mathcamp (subsidized for qulaifiers) provide some of the best experiences a smart kid can have, and are in no way at all restricted to wealthy families. Daddy's money and connections cannot buy you a spot in these programs if you do not otherwise qualify. As a side benefit, being able to qualify for programs like that and having the interest to pursue them also demonstrates the kind of drive and intellectual passion that colleges like to see.</p>
<p>Ok this is my guess on how admissions people would see summer activies
expensive "travel" opportunities ( biking through the Loire... shopping in London... not so impressive if you are looking for more substance)
Academic or community service opportunities by students who obviously have money- much better than above and certainly much more interesting than hanging out at beach and working to supplement allowance.
anything by kids that are lower income seem to be rated higher, colleges acknowledge that many of them have to work & or watch over younger siblings and if they actually spend time doing academic or community service as well or instead it is very impressive.
Students that are well off I feel are expected to have more opportunities in first place, so more is expected of them.</p>
<p>["Academic or community service opportunities by students who obviously have money- much better than above and certainly much more interesting than hanging out at beach and working to supplement allowance."]</p>
<p>I am not sure I would agree with how the adcomms would view summer programs. Certainly, looking at the 3 pg thread on the topic on CC, there seems to be a lot of interest in, and support of a wide vairety of summer programs. I think that those who can afford to do other things but choose to do community service or an enrichment program would be looked at positively by the adcomms, especially if this comes through clearly in essays or interviews. I don't think that more fortunate kids have to apologize for their situation. And I don't think that the adcomms would automatically assume that a rich kid doing community service is probably doing it because of how it would look. If that is the case , we are not instilling very good values in our kids. That would be most sad.</p>
<p>As an aside, how do you get the quote in a grey box?? I can't get it to work :(</p>
<p>I just spoke with a mom whose son was deferred from an elite college. He is a double legacy, and his grades and scores were well in the top 25%. His ECs were about average. Most of his summers were spent doing some exciting and exotic things that the parents were sure would catch an adcom's eye. Because of the double legacy status, and because of a contact, they spoke directly with admissions about the deferment. To their shock, the only thing that really interested the adcoms about his activities is that he spent a summer at a low level job, cleaning and being a gopher. That was of more interest to the adcoms than a bike trip challenge in Europe or going on one of those paid programs to help a poor Mexican village. </p>
<p>Community service is pretty much a given on those apps these days, unless the kid is very busy doing something else more important such as working to help out family finances, caring for family issues and interests. Another bye given for community service is if a student has a strong interest and passion in something that is very time consuming. I know that every private school my kidshve attended have pretty hefty community service requirements, and give ample opportunity at school to meet them. My sons' school has community servic opportunities going all of the time. So ALL of the kids, regardless of how busy they are end up putting in so many hours. In order for community service to stand out on a resume, it needs to be unusual and/or the student needs to have had a major, substantial role in the activity. </p>
<p>I would really like to see more community service required by colleges and of a more substansive sort. I go as far as to say that all kids should take a gap year providing some sort of national or community service in things that need to be done. And a "report" should be issued on how well and committed the kid was. It would provide some breathing room between highschool and college. It would allow the college to look at all 4 years of the highschool performance. It would also give a more in depth profile of the student as a person. It would also mean the kids are a bit more mature when they get to college.</p>
<p>OK....well I know a kid who was a pretty good student (upper range, but not straight A's etc.). He did the building houses in Nicaragua thing for 2 summers. He got into everywhere he applied (Penn, Cornell, etc) and won every (non-need) scholarship he applied for - and was told by MANY adcoms/scholarship givers that they were SO impressed with his summers in Nicaragua (of course he also wrote his essay on it).
Others with better stats, but no Nicaragua, did not do as well.
Of course, the reason he went to Nicaragua was because his parents figured it would help him get into colleges - and it did.</p>
<p>Following up on jym626's comments above, some of us parents send our kids to public high schools which may not be as strong in some academic areas as some of the private schools. Because we are not paying tuition for hs, we are then able to supplement our kids' educational experiences through summer enrichment programs for which tuition/fees are charged. I don't see why kids who are motivated to attend these programs and whose parents can afford them, should feel guilty or apologetic any more than a student who is attending private school instead of the public school available to all.</p>
<p>this was supposed to go into the "what to do in the summer thread"<br>
Sorry!</p>
<p>Motheroftwo, summer programs, particularly the more rigorous ones that give credit are held in high esteem by adcoms. They are, in fact, particularly scrutinized when kids go to schools that are not on the college radar screens and do not offer many advanced courses. Though high standardized test scores and grades do give a good picture of the ability of kids who are from unknown schools, colleges also like to see how these kids perform when they are with other high performers. In any of the top schools, you will see many CTY kids, and kids who have gone to a variety of precollege programs. </p>
<p>I am sure that any assessment of any program is anecdotal. I have seen kids get into top colleges with NO community service, NO jobs, NO summer supplements. I have seen kids with flaws in their transcript get into top school, and kids with not so high SAT1 scores. If the kid has something the college covets, if he can demonstrate that he can do the work, he is generally in. I can tell you that many of my son's classmates "buy" these summer community service programs. I really do not believe they are a hook or even a "tip". The kids who get in despite a wanting academic profile, but have done something truly extraordinary in community service do not tend to do "canned programs. Such a program is not going to keep someone out anymore than an address in a wealthy area, being in an expensive family school, having highly educated parents. Colleges are well represented in this regard. But I do not believe "buying" an expensive community service project is going to be the roadway into HPY & co.</p>
<p>Jamimom, I agree with you totally about the "paid" community service trips, and that's not what I was referring to in my comments. I was talking more about educational enrichment programs, which, unlike CTY or Governor's school (both of which my son did), are not competitive and do not require an application process. I was actually thinking about students like my daughter, who is a very good, but not CTY/Gov. School level student. She is very interested in foreign languages and cultures, and, unfortunately, this is the weakest academic dept. in our public h.s. She travelled alone to Spain for an immersion program last summer, which entailed attending classes several hours a day as well as homestay, trips and activities. This was a program which we, as parents, paid for and the intent was not specifically to help her get into college, but to broaden her horizons and allow her to improve her fluency in Spanish. However, I would hope that someone reviewing her college application who saw that she did this trip would be thinking that my daughter was interested in learning Spanish beyond the offerings of her school and was an adventurous young person to travel alone to Europe, rather than that she has "rich" parents and that it would have been better for her to be working in the summer. (She has spent her past summers working/ volunteering at day camps and children's programs locally, and had never spent an extended stay away from home before).</p>
<p>Motheroftwo, it is always wonderful to have experiences that enrich one's academic resume. It shows an interest above and beyond what is necessary. And it can certainly serve as a springboard for discussion and future studies. How much it counts in elite college admissions, is a different story, however. In my sons' school, I would have to say every single kid has a slew of these type of activities and it is a private school. I know many, many public school kids who also are in such activities. Certainly, it looks better than a blank space on the activities page. But as to the value of getting into a top school, I doubt it. If you read "What It Really Takes To Get Into the Ivy Leagues" by Chuck Hughes, you will see the list of activities that can make a significant difference in your EC quotient. For the very top schools, the list is pretty short, and involves national level programs that are application and merit based and/or heavy on assessment. Even some of the summer programs that require an app that are sponsored by the college itself, often does not count for more than a smidgeon in the acceptance process. But the holistic nature of admissions, also makes the sum of the whole application and applicant far more significant than any of the pieces. So in that light, even the "bought" activities can be valuable in giving the adcoms a picture of the applicant and his interests. </p>
<p>Also the intense scrutiny that ECs get are really only at the very top school which comprise a very small number of the school in the country. For most colleges, such experiences are a delight to read about. My freshman son who does not have any directed interests will probably do a number of such activities in order to to help develop some interests. Not to build his resume. He is not at that point, and may not be one that will, unlike his brothers who already had substantial stakes in activities and for whom we had to carefully check the next step in programs to get the most bang for the bucks. My older son was a good enough athlete at this age, that to put him in some camps for that sport would not further him in that activity which was a directed goal we had for him if he were to have the opportunity to be a college athlete. This younger one would not be comfortable in such an intense directed environment even if we could get him into such a program. Everything should not be done for a college resume and if in planning these type of activities, a parent is ignoring the development and interests of his child, it is not a good choice. When assessing comparable programs in a field of interest, you learn that some are held in higher esteem than others as a sign of accomplishment in an activity, you just might want to take that knowledge into consideration when making the choice. I just think that ECs, particularly those that involve more money than merit to get into the program, that are not easily verifiable are not particularly weighed heavily in the decision process.</p>
<p>Jamimom and others with kids at boarding schools, What do these kids do summers? I can't think of letting daughter go away to summer programs if she's away most of the school year. Would it be horrible for her to be limited to local activities?</p>
<p>The kid that I mentioned who worked a menial job one summer lives in a very wealthy area and goes to a boarding school. According to the adcom, that was the best thing on his resume, and I didn't think it was lean at all. Kirmum, none of my kids went away for the summer except for perhaps a week or ten days in some program. They worked locally and found locally venues for their interests. My girls took community college courses on an audit basis, worked part time and found something fun to do either as a job or activity. I did not spend much on their summers, and have tried to get them to have jobs during this time. We also try to go away for one week each summer to the beach as a family though as time has passed it is increasingly difficult to get everyone together. But we have never missed a year of renting a beach house and really just doing nothing for a week as the kids and their friends come and go as they can. </p>
<p>I will tell you, however, that it just occurred to me that the apps have been light on asking about jobs lately. Though there is a section on them, I seem to remember that a few years ago, a common question was about how much you made during the year in terms of pocket money, saving for college, helping out the family, covering own expenses. I have not seen that question in a few years. </p>
<p>I am looking for programs right now for my freshman son. He is different from all of the other kids in that he really does not know what he wants to do. This one, I suspect, would prefer to sleep in, read sci fi novels, watch tv, play video games and go on the computer. A few encounters with a few friends would be just fine, and jsut having them at the house or going to their house or to the movies would be just fine too. He does not seem to have any significant interest in anything even though he does have some great skills. Too young to really work--that'll come in a year or two, though he does have an offers at the humane society and at the vets, but my kids are forbidden to work with animals. I have 8 dogs and 4 cats as a result of those danged jobs, and I am way over the line. I have been eyeing the summer program thread for ideas. Maybe one of those camps that Digmedia was describing since he is so into video games, computers and sci fi, for a few weeks. But I don't think we'll have anything eye popping on the agenda.</p>
<p>Jamimom, I agree with your points and, in the case of both my kids, they are already attending (older) or admitted (younger) to college, so we have no need to even think about what looks good on a college application at this point. And my daughter did not aspire to Ivy League or similar schools - I don't know if in the context of your discussion you would consider the college she will attend to be "elite", most likely you would not. However, unlike you, I know very few students from our public hs who partake in such summer activities. I must say that she was unusual among her group of friends who are in the top academic group of students in our very large public school (graduating class of 800) to be doing something like this - a few were accepted to Gov. School and I only know one who did a pre-college program at a university, and that's it. Maybe it is a difference in the nature of our hs from the ones you are familiar with. Also, just so you know, as far as having "a blank space on the activities page", this is definitely not an issue for my daughter. The poor kid has more interests than she knows what to do with, both school activities and personal hobbies and interests that she does on her own. Her biggest problem is to find time to do everything she would like to do, do well in school (as she has done), and have a social life. This is her nature - she is self-motivated, not motivated by "resume building".</p>
<p>I don't know if you read my post that is directly above your, Motheroftwo. My kids did not go to top programs for the summer either. They tended to stay home and work. They did go to some away activities when they were deemed worth doing, but really for limited stints, and other than the athlete who was offered some pro bono top level camps for his sport, none of them ever went to any Gov School or CTY or any such programs for the summer. Actually, up till now finding things for them to do during the summer was never an issue as the older ones seemed to always be finding opportunities, but if they cost too much money, the answer was always "no". Though if they had a true interest in a truly worthwhile program, we might have considered it, but most of their money costing ideas where things like renting a beach house with a bunch of friends for a vacation (yeah, right, we were going to subsidize that one). And actually in this area, most of the kids work during the summer, as do a number of their schoolmates. But there are quite a few from his prep school that do go to some competitive programs. I just have had no real reason to spend $6K for some precollege program, and none of my kids showed any interest in any such thing, though the senior did shortly consider some NYU and CMU theatre programs that were very expensive. But it did not ever grow into a request,and he found some local things that even paid him instead of the other way around.</p>
<p>When I say "elite" colleges or "top" colleges, I use the word loosely, and I really mean the most selective colleges. The ones where a strong resume is necessary. I don't know where your kids are in college or where the younger one is looking, but my girls went/are going to non selective, small Catholic colleges that are not mentioned on this forum. Though the boys went to what are considered selective schools, they are not ivies. My senior son will be the first to go to any ivy if he ends up going to Yale, which I think is likely. However, he did not aspire to go to Ivy League or similar schools. He applied to about a dozen audition based programs in a number of colleges that are not at all selective except for that program, and added HPY to his list as a lark because so many of his classmates were. So it's difficult to say where they will end up applying. He had a terrific resume which was essential in his acceptance, I'm sure, but it was never built with an eye for the ivies, but to build his skills so he could audition in the performing arts and have a shot in getting into a reputable program. I do believe that part of the decision to add those academically selective school on his list was because of some of the sniffs he got when people heard he was going to Oklahoma City or Santa Fe to audition. A shame, but it can affect kids. As for me, well, I paid for those audition trips because that was what he wanted to do, and I didn't say a word about those schools. Just want him busy and happy for 4 years till he can grow up. Of course I am thrilled with the outcome, but it was not on my drawing board for him. And you know what? He may not get into the majority of those audition programs at those "non-elite" schools. The chances of getting into one of those is like 3-5% whereas Yale took a whopping 16% early.</p>
<p>My son really benefited from CTY after 7th and 8th grade - I think it is a tremendous experience in middle school, because students learn what college dorm life is like. As an only child, my son was delighted (after some initial shyness) with dorm life, playing cards with his floor mates, and the opportunity to visit with new buddies all evening. As for the courses, he took Logic and Formal Reasoning the first year, taught by an associate professor, and he wrote an application essay about it as the best course he has ever taken. In addition to formal logic, they read several Platonic dialogues and did a class research project on capital punishment, culminating in a formal debate. Not only that, he came home having memorized a long list of logical fallacies and got the pleasure of nailing me every time I used one (the sophistry of parents - busted!)</p>
<p>The second year he took Probability and Game Theory, taught by a full professor. The catalog had stated that Algebra I was the prerequisite, but when the class started it turned out to be a typo, it really required Algebra II and he had only completed Geometry. The teaching assistant worked intensively with my son and a few other of the younger students on his own time, and by the end of the class they were quite competent with probability calculations. It was a true accelerated learning challenge. The Game Theory part of the course focused on game types and strategies for each - which made him unbeatable in the "connect the dots" game - surely a critical life skill. </p>
<p>Older high school students might find the orchestrated activities a bit too structured, but it was a wonderful experience for the younger ones. CTY has perfected these programs over time and I would recommend them highly. Just the other day we were talking about the fact that none of his friends had applied to the colleges on his list, and he expressed some concern that he wouldn't know anyone at college next year. I reminded him about CTY and how easy it was to meet people when you lived right next to them, and he smiled. His experience living in a dorm for three weeks proved that he could adjust quickly to college life and make lots of new friends.</p>
<p>jym
I was misread above
what I was saying was that academic or community service opportunities were strnger than simply showing that your family could afford to travel to beautiful places.</p>
<p>I know an extremely intelligent kid who was getting recruited by Harvard for football, but now he's turning them down for a full-ride to San Diego State.</p>