I think I’ll agree to let students and their parents look into these programs themselves rather than respond to broad statements where folks have specific opinions.
From a cost and time consideration, knowing he wanted a PhD, he would have been better off going straight into a PhD program rather than the Masters + PhD route. Even if he wasn’t sure he wanted a PhD, picking a program where he had the ability to “Master out” would have been a better choice as well since:
A) An integrated PhD (ie Master’s+PhD) is more likely to be fully funded for the full 6 years
and
B) there’s a strong possibility that he will not get credit for his Master’s level work and will have to repeat it as part of the PhD program anyway (at least if he pursues his PhD in the US), putting him 2 years and $85,000 behind the ball.
If GPA was the consideration for not going the integrated PhD route, he would have been better off financially pursuing one outside the US where terminal Master’s degrees are more common and more often fully funded.
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I’ll respond via DM with specifics.
Thank you for his Service. He sounds like an outstanding young man of great character.
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Personal experience with grad schools:
My daughter was in Masters programs and got partial scholarships…she attended two: MIT and UC-Berkeley (also in second year at Berkeley, her tuition went down as she was then considered a CA resident, though from VT). She had partial scholarship offers from many other grad schools including Stanford, Columbia, Cornell, etc. At Berkeley, besides the scholarships in her Masters degree program, she was paid for research and for TAing.
My daughter-in-law (an American) got her first Masters at University of Cambridge (UK) at no cost. She then entered a PhD program at Harvard at no cost. After the first two years, she earned another Master’s degree from Harvard. After 3 years, she left as she didn’t want to go into academia. She recently received her 3rd Master’s degree in a specialty that she needs/wants to move up in her current job (though her current job is related to her previous studies) and her job (not an academic one), which is at an Ivy League school, paid for this Master’s program which was NOT at their school.
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It typically takes 4-6 years in the US, but it could take longer (and it happens with some frequency) as it all depends on whether the student can successfully produce and defend her/his unique and academically worthy thesis. So if the student (or her/his family) has to bear the cost, it could be much more substantial than the cost of an undergraduate education. That’s why such programs aren’t worthwhile.
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I am aware and I agree.
The typical profile of someone paying for a standalone Master’s degree in the US is:
a) it provides professional accreditation
b) they’re an international applicant hoping to use it as a stepping stone towards immigration
c) their undergrad GPA isn’t high enough to get into a direct entry PhD program
d) they’re being taken advantage of (USC Pushed a $115,000 Online Degree. Graduates Got Low Salaries, Huge Debts. - WSJ)
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This. The entry level degree for my profession is a masters degree. Without that degree, one cannot be licensed or certified to do the job (allied health profession). Add to this…there are not enough seats in graduate programs for all those who apply. And there are a limited number of assistantships and fellowships at the masters level. My grad program had 36 students. There were two part time and one full time funded positions. Everyone else paid the full cost of attendance.
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I assume this “profile” covers teachers who receive a bump in salary after finishing their master’s degree.
In many states, teachers are required to get a masters degree within a certain number of years of teaching. Where I am, I believe they have 5 years…it might be 4. If they don’t get the masters degree, they lose their jobs. It’s required here.
I’m a public school speech pathologist. I needed a masters to get licensed and certified period. With a bachelors, you can’t do this job in this state (actually anywhere now).
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I think there’s a bit of nuance here. You say “at no cost” presumably because she didn’t pay out of pocket for her degrees, but there is an opportunity cost in that she was forgoing the salary she could potentially have been earning had she been in the workforce for the 4-5 years she was attending Cambridge & Harvard presumably earning little more than to cover her living costs.
Now if she could not have gotten the job she wanted without the degrees, and if the salary she commands with the degrees more than offsets the lost salary, then that might be considered not to have cost anything. Rarely is that the case however and typically it can take 10+ years to recoup the cost of lost earnings in terms of salary. Even so there often still is a loss in terms of potential retirement savings and interest growth.
That’s not to say that it wasn’t worth it to her, but it wasn’t necessarily at “no cost”.
I’m only conveying what happens in our local school district here in CA. A masters is not required at any point for just classroom teachers, unless you want to be paid more money.
A masters is required to teach in my state and you have 5 years to do it. If you come in through an alternate route you have 2 years.
My profession requires a masters to practice. You can attend one of our city colleges and get the degree for about $30,000, but these schools are competitive admits.
Both of my kids careers require a masters degree.
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Of course when one is a student, they are not earning a full time income. However, in the case of my daughter and with my daughter-in-law, they would not have the jobs they hold now without their graduate degrees. These degrees opened up the careers they have. Their undergraduate degrees would not have been enough for their professions/jobs.
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I would be curious to know what kind of a career requires 3 master’s degrees.
1NJ, I would probably do the following:
- Make him research the possible career paths of his intended major, along with expected salaries.
- Steer him toward schools that do not have reputations as “indoctrination mills”, where open debate and free expression is still encouraged and protected.
- Set a budget for his undergraduate education, commensurate with the expected salary. If he can get a scholarship, or gain admission to a strong, relatively inexpensive state school, good for him.
- Make clear to him that returning home to live in our basement after graduation is not an option. If he wants to study 14th Century Persian Philosophy, he should have a bartending job lined up to make ends meet.
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I have no qualms if my kids come back home to live in my basement or their bedrooms for that matter after graduation if they’re working. I will be charging them rent though.
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I wouldn’t either as long as it’s not permanent and they have a plan and are contributing to the household in some way. If they live with us after college, sitting around and doing nothing all day is not allowed. College graduates who live in mom and dad’s house and sit around playing video games all day, do that because it’s allowed. Mom and dad are too chicken to say no.
Maybe the philosophy major won’t live at home and won’t have a bartending job. I know a kid who is bartending, he didn’t go to college. I love how people assume people who have a humanities degree will live at home after college or will be a bartending…
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I love Tim Minchin’s 9 lessons for life and share it with all the young folks in my life that care about what I have to say.
And to the original question, no. Finding something one would like to study for four years that might lead to financial independence is hard enough. I feel that setting the bar even higher with expectations of a lucrative career is burdensome. I still have a high schooler that is vacillating wildly on his proclaimed interests. Within a short period of a few months he’s switched from music, to law and now to genetics. My guess is that there will be a few more iterations of this pattern before he settles. He has learned so much by these wild swings, however. I have learned so much about genetics at the dinner table these past few months.
And my general sense is that higher education in the US is a product. Young people feel pressured to “consume” as much as they can. I’m not convinced that many of the jobs people end up doing need the educational qualifications required to even get an interview for said job.
Lastly, one of the most interesting and well read people that I have met lately is our new plumber. Young guy, great at his job. Our house is full of books (my significant other has begrudgingly learned to tolerate my need for their overwhelming presence in our house) and our plumber is a reader too. During Covid we had great conversations over coffee when his job was done (the “benefits” of living in an old house). I think he makes a great living, has a young family and a rich intellectual life. He seems happy. I would be very proud of him if he were my son. My own son has two left feet (and two left hands) so will probably have to rely on his wit to make a living.
Yes, credential creep is common, probably as a way to limit new entrants who threaten to compete against existing practitioners. For example, the entry level degree for occupational therapy was changed from a bachelor’s degree to a master’s degree about a decade ago. Now, it is more expensive to attain the education needed to enter the profession. Other examples include physical therapy, where the entry level degree changed from a master’s degree to a doctoral degree, and law, where (decades ago) it became required to have a bachelor’s degree before getting a law degree.
Because professional master’s and doctoral degree study can be very expensive, students considering such paths need to pay careful attention to avoiding excessive debt for undergraduate, and also consider undergraduate study in areas that can support suitable other career paths of their interest if they do not get into, choose not to do, or delay going on to the professional school.
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