<p>Dbate</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly, where have you applied?</p>
<p>money can't buy genius, hmom.</p>
<p>Who's talking genius? It can buy great educations, SAT scores and college applications.</p>
<p>And Jd, it buys the great private and prep school coaches your son will play with the beneficiaries of should he attend D.</p>
<p>Lack of money/resources can derail genius. And money can go a long way in making up for the lack of it.</p>
<p>Appreciate all of the feedback. I guess I will keep you all posted on the application status of my son.</p>
<p>"Then when we stopped by a school on our way home from vacation and went to the info session- I cried."</p>
<p>Actually, it doesn't matter which school, or what type of school it was. When the adcoms described the schools philosophy- it made me realize that my kids needed to go to the place that fit them-and that might not be close to home. Prior to that I hadn't entertained the thought of them going outsied of our area at all- and I was completely unaware of what expectations colleges had of applicants, let alone selective ones. </p>
<p>My kids may still end up close to home- maybe the school that fits their need come spring might be just down the path- but the point is that they have put themselves in a position to have those choices because, in my case I educated myself about the process.</p>
<p>An example: In 6th grade, we were new to the area, my S1 was not put in the highest math track. Not an issue to me- I probably didn't even know there was a math track at that point...but S1 felt as though he was not where he belonged and wanted to work during the summer to move up- by chance a new neighbor was telling me about their daughter who had high pretty high sat scores and gpa but had not taken calculus and that colleges were telling them they wanted to see Calculus on the transcript. So I went ahead and fought for him to be able to take a homeschool math program during the summer. He did and went on to become the top math student at his school. The point is- had I not had some insight at that point about the importance of the math track (decided back in 6th grade- still floors me!!) I would never have gone through the pain of fighting the system for him. </p>
<p>If you would hire somebody to do your taxes (which my husband believes everyone can do their own taxes - all the information is on the internet and in those little government booklets) then why wouldn't you hire somebody to help your kids through a major process. If that's what works for someone.</p>
<p>pugandkate- I know reality says that money makes all the difference- and I probably have to agree. However- my husband was poor- worked hard- went to college- worked hard- got a good job- worked hard-.....I do believe if there is a will there is a way!!</p>
<p>Sigh.</p>
<p>A former colleague sent me a link to this thread with the caption "What parents think of the dark side." (In case you're wondering, in admissions lingo, the dark side are private counselors...not admissions in general!)</p>
<p>[I'm a former admissions officer for "prestigious" highly regarded colleges. I know some of you will doubt this fact and discount what I'm about to say. (This is my first post - but nonetheless I need to obscure my identity). I'm sorry in advance I can't "prove" my identity to you, but it's essential in this biz. Take my thoughts or leave them, I just felt compelled to chime in!]</p>
<p>First, a few words to those of you who will be/have hired private counselors, from my perspective and the perspective of many of my friends/other admissions officers:
-Never hire a private counselor who has not actually been an admissions officer. You'd be surprised how many people realize the money in private college counseling and hang out a shingle. The people who are the most "dangerous" are the people who have no idea what they're talking about. They may have slick brochures, a fancy office, or even stories of their successes. Run. </p>
<p>-Never hire a private counselor who boasts of their placement percentages. This is usually a bad sign, even though it appears positive; typically these manipulated metrics are being used to woo you, not actual evidence of their successes. These types of counselors/counseling firms tend to "weed out" their applicants, meaning that if your child wants to apply to Dartmouth but they don't think s/he will get in, they are going to try to dissuade your kid or drop you as a client. Take with a grain of salt the percentages about Ivy League or "First Choice" placement. If the kid who was dying for Harvard's Celtic Languages program got into Cornell's Ag School, the firm's going to use them in their stats, even if the kid ends up at Wisconsin or UM-Milwaukee (both of which have excellent Celtic programs, by the way). Similarly your son or daughter may have their hearts set on Williams, be talked into applying ED to Hamilton because the counselor convinces them they won't get into Williams (and that they'll only get into Hamilton ED - not that there's anything the least bit wrong or bad about Hamilton!), and then counted in their "First Choice" stats.</p>
<p>-Counselors/firms that charge ridiculous fees (think $20,000) are going to have inflated admissions statistics. Why? Because these places are going to draw in a group of students who already have some things going for them - they typically attend independent or boarding schools, they tend to be legacy applicants to many prestigious universities, and their parents have a lot of cash to throw around (as evidenced by the $20,000 they're coughing up for a private counselor). Of course these are just generalizations, but in my experiences (from the "other side of things") they tend to hold true.</p>
<p>-Any private college counselor/firm that claims to have a "special relationship" with a school is lying or is doing something unethical. I've never heard of any admissions officer at any school I know of who maintains special relationships with these people and especially not at any of the "top" schools. Former admissions officers who create these companies are generally professionally ostracized by their former colleagues, the least of which is because of concerns over appearances issues (admissions officers like to avoid looking biased. Of course we're all biased - what human on earth isn't? - but we like to minimize those biases as much as possible, particularly the appearance of them!).</p>
<p>What else to keep in mind? Well, ultimately, the guidance counselor recommendation that arrives with your son/daughter's application is going to be written by your child's guidance counselor. Not the person you're paying. AOs are not going to read anything your paid consultant writes, not going to call them to talk about your kid, and certainly not going to put any stock into what they think (why not? because you're paying them to speak highly of your child!). </p>
<p>Also, you should know that using a private counselor can influence things. No, no admissions officer I know of is going to ding your child's application because they (/their family) hired a private counselor - and you'd be surprised how it can be quite obvious some times. But I've had guidance counselors tell me that XYZ child is using a private counselor (just because you think you're doing a good job of hiding this fact from your child's counselor does not mean you are!) and seem rather disappointed over this fact. Did it influence your child's guidance counselor letter? No way to know.</p>
<p>Of course private college counselors aren't unilaterally bad people or unilaterally wrong choices for some young people. I've recommended them to some people (not specific names, but that they pursue this option perhaps) as have several of the most well-regarded high school counselors I know. Does your child have a learning disability and is that making the college search more challenging? Is your daughter dying to study a niche field (experiential education; equestrian studies; soil chemistry; Buddhism?) and her guidance counselor doesn't have the time or doesn't even know where to begin? Does your son go to a large high school where there aren't the resources or manpower to help him find that school for him? Sure. Go ahead. But if you just want a "leg up" to get your little Suzy or Johnny into XYZ Name Brand Ivy Prestigious U or because your next door neighbor is doing it, think about the consequences of your time, money, and, ultimately, that it probably won't have much of ANY impact.</p>
<p>Yes, private counselors can be great because they keep your child on track in terms of organizing the process (did they ask Ms. Chemistry Teacher to write a rec yet? Send SAT scores to their schools yet? etc), help your child refine their search, and highlight schools that align with their strengths (for example, the College of Wooster has great scholarships for students who excel in Scottish dance). Is your child looking for small liberal arts colleges but you live in Tampa and he's never heard of Macalester? Or your daughter wants someplace "alternative" but Evergreen State College isn't on her radar? Then it's great s/he got a private counselor.</p>
<p>BUT most high school seniors - the majority of them - are admitted to colleges without using private counseling services. (I know it may not seem that way to some of you, especially if you live in Westchester or Long Island . . .okay, okay, sorry, nothing against the metro-NY region, just a little joke).</p>
<p>Also, AOs often times know when your child is using a private counselor, especially if its a counselor that has a high load of clients. They tend to have similarly formatted application pieces (what are the odds that 8 young people, who attend 5 different schools in a region, are going to attach resume "activity sheets" to their applications that use the same unique font, have the same unique border, are formatted in the identically similar way, and use the same exact phrasing/description for an activity? Slim). Of course that doesn't mean anything in the process usually. But it's something you should think about.</p>
<p>Hmmm...a few other things that jumped out at me (I can't believe it's late in the evening and I'm typing on a parents' website about colleges. yikes!)-
*Your child's application is your child's application. It isn't your application or "our" application. You'd be surprised how many phone calls AOs or their support staffs get from parents (and no offense mothers, but they tended to come from moms) that begin with "We wanted to know about our application..." It's an urban myth that if you call on behalf of your son/daughter AOs are going to mark it down and somehow penalize your child, but truly they should be the ones making any sort of contact about their application. Of course that's not always possible. They have lives - soccer, environmental science club, school trips, live in Hawaii with time change problems, et cetera. If you need to make the call for them, do it. But recognize that applying to college is part of growing up and being in charge of the process is equally important.</p>
<p>*AOs do notice, however, how you or your child act on the phone (or at information sessions or to the office staff if they come and visit). I hope this little story doesn't out me to any former colleagues (people in my old office remember this one - it was infamous). I once had an applicant call on the phone. At many universities AOs answer their own phones (direct lines) and sometimes in high peak times people don't realize they're actually being transferred out to AOs because the switchboard can't keep up (when they call the general admissions number). This young man started off by going off on why we thought his application was incomplete when he had clearly sent it to us on time (et cetera et cetera). He was vulgar, rude, and inappropriate. And, apparently, thought he was talking to a secretary. As soon as I could interrupt him and said "As an admissions officer, I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you're having with our process...(etc etc)" and promised to look into the situation, his tone shifted dramatically. He admitted he thought I was a secretary! As if that makes it any better! I did write down his name - and not to just look into this incomplete file situation. AOs know the process is stressful (although we wish it weren't) and tempers can sometimes flare. But there's no need for rudeness or even worse, especially not if it's simply a matter of students thinking they "can" be rude to someone (i.e. a secretary). It's inappropriate and noticed.</p>
<p>*To the people who talked about independent (private) school counselors being in touch with AOs - yes, it does happen. No, there isn't bargaining going on behind the scenes (at least not at any reputable place I know of!) but especially when it comes to schools that send large school groups (admissions parlance for applicants from a particular high school), these things happen. Typically it consists of what I'd describe as a "heads up call." In previous decades there may have been bargaining type activity going on - "I know Sally will go to your school if you admit her; John over at Prestigious U told me that they're admitting little Joey so can you take Sally from waitlist to admit and waitlist Joey, he's not going to come?" That hasn't happened in at least a decade at the top places. Nowadays it's much more of a courtesy call to let counselors know that little Suzy, the double legacy who's parents also happen to be big donors at her private school, is getting denied or that unfortunately the val. is going to be waitlisted and no one's being admitted from that school this year regular decision. AOs make these calls, if they make them, AFTER the decisions have been made and most schools are phasing this out if they still do it anymore (and only to counselors who are trusted and well known to the AOs - there's a horrifying story I heard from a colleague at another top school once where a school counselor accidentally told a kid a few days in advance of the letter arriving that he'd been denied at this university; these types of things ruin that kind of relationship). Do the majority of private (or public) school counselors talk to AOs before decisions in this way? MOST DEFINITELY NOT.</p>
<p>Okay, last but not least, AOs are humans too. I've cried over applicants' essays; I've cried over applicants I wanted to admit but who weren't admissible for our school; I've cried in the bathroom after the committee denied my favorite applicant who I loved (I'm not a cry baby I promise!). Your children's essays have made me laugh out loud. Their teacher's anecdotes have inspired me, made me want to share a cup of coffee with them or hear them play the guitar. Admissions officers care about their applicants, truly. We think your children are smart and funny and accomplished and driven and friendly and they paint beautiful pictures and make wonderful chicken tikka masala and cheer up old folks at the retirement home where they do community service. They're talented musicians and scientists and poets and they can outshine me in linear algebra and most certainly know more French than I can speak. So we're not lying when we say we regret we can't admit them. </p>
<p>So please don't try to game us or pull the wool over our eyes about things. It doesn't work - and if it does, it will surely backfire.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Okay, last but not least, AOs are humans too. I've cried over applicants' essays; I've cried over applicants I wanted to admit but who weren't admissible for our school; I've cried in the bathroom after the committee denied my favorite applicant who I loved (I'm not a cry baby I promise!). Your children's essays have made me laugh out loud. Their teacher's anecdotes have inspired me, made me want to share a cup of coffee with them or hear them play the guitar. Admissions officers care about their applicants, truly. We think your children are smart and funny and accomplished and driven and friendly and they paint beautiful pictures and make wonderful chicken tikka masala and cheer up old folks at the retirement home where they do community service. They're talented musicians and scientists and poets and they can outshine me in linear algebra and most certainly know more French than I can speak. So we're not lying when we say we regret we can't admit them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wow, thank you. It means so much more to hear an admissions officer validate the idea that the best you can do is to "be yourself" in those terms. Makes the actual acceptance/rejection seem trivial.</p>
<p>Better than reading the original article "Dirty Secrets of College Admissions"...Twocents' description of the admissions process is priceless insight. Thanks for posting.</p>
<p>Twocents, you need to come back to the profession and join the ranks of the admission bloggers. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
And, yes, Andison benefited from a private counselor too. That's a story with a happy ending.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I still don't recall a counselor playing a significant role in the Andison story.</p>
<p>I do remember that Andison applied to a completely different set of schools second time round, with the exception of one school -- and he was rejected there the second time round as well.</p>
<p>Andison's list didn't have any safeties, which became obvious when he was rejected or waitlisted everywhere. The family had no need to pay anyone $1000 or more dollars to show them the new list had to include a much wider range of schools. Given his strong school record and stats, it was then no surprise when he was accepted the second time round with significant merit money at a bunch of places, especially given his gap year which included taking courses at MIT.</p>
<p>Fendrock, I don't recall Andison using a private counselor either. I recall that he took a gap year and did some interesting things with that time. Then he applied to a new list of schools where he experienced much better success in admissions. I also remember that he was rejected the second time around from at least one school from his original list.</p>
<p>Thanks twocents- what a great post.</p>
<p>Fantastic post, twocents. I hope you stick around....</p>
<p>I agree with some of your strongly worded points twocents. However, the more reputable private counselors are selective as well because they can be. They are realists too otherwise this would ruin their reputation and future business model. If a college adviser cannot follow through on promises, then why do what they are doing. People are going to go with who wins in this game..who has a proven track record..and who is making sense in the process. Obviously people need to have a good head on their shoulders when choosing a private counselor. They should ask in depth questions and have a private consultation with the company about their child. Based on books, statistics, ect....do these interests align? and how much can you stretch that line with private counselors. </p>
<p>The goal of the program that I am going through is to build basically a resume throughout the child's collegiate career. Align their interests and passions and show them how to pursue them in such a way that makes them a solid applicant for college. What courses to take, what tests to take, when to take them are all things that must be tailored to the student. Essay writing is also another one of these unique skill sets that must be refined before the application process. All of these things are covered by a private counselor in a time effective and potentially cost effective way (when considering opportunity cost). Obviously people fall into different income levels and place different values on education. To those who have the money and place a high priority on getting their child into a good school, then why not go through a counselor who can give advise that is tailored to their child and not read from a book that talks about the applicant pool as a whole. </p>
<p>I just feel that it makes sense to go through a college counselor. Not only for economic but for practical reasons. In the process of trying to find a counselor, we sat down and talked with this service. They seemed to be the most realistic and passionate about our child's potential of getting into a good school. I have considered all of my options, and honestly this turned out to be the best one for MY situation...this may not apply to all bloggers but it certainly seemed like the best decision for my family.</p>
<p>Thank you so much, twocents, for your excellent, detailed, and empathetic post. I have always thought that the less students and families see admissions as an adversarial relationship, the better the experience will be. At least, that was our experience as parents of two bright kids from a non-competitive, dreaded "big box" HS who ended up at great schools by presenting *themselves *at their best, and nothing more. It was always my position that if doing that didn't get them into those schools, then fine, that's not where they should be.</p>
<p>Your post is a very reassuring and welcome addition to this conversation. Thank you!</p>
<p>Great, honest, informative post, justmytwocents. Thank you.</p>
<p>laxmid, we do understand your points. But your frequent mention of the name of the counseling company you've selected seems a bit unnatural. Are you getting a discount for giving them free publicity on this forum?</p>
<p>Plenty of us value education as much as you do, but still would not think it desirable for our kids to have their little lives and decisions so intimately orchestrated by an outsider who has only one goal in mind: college admissions. There is so much to be gained by a teenager making choices, trying different things, and figuring life out for himself, even if, or perhaps especially if, "mistakes" (from an admissions standpoint) are made.</p>
<p>twocents,
THANK YOU for your sane, level-headed take on this subject. Wish you were an AO at some of the schools where S2 will be applying!</p>
<p>I will confess I read a couple of the private college counselor books (checked them out from the library -- I had no desire to line their pockets) and got some useful ideas about activity resumes, which S wound up modifying for his particular emphases.</p>
<p>Thank you, justmytwocents! That last paragraph was beautiful.</p>