<p>monydad- Work with what you have. Start asking about the games. Have your son compare story lines, graphics, game play, user interface, beginner tutorials, target audience demographics, etc. Those analytical skills are crucial if he secretly dreams of going into game design. Too many kids who play games and dream of it, don't get how much work and calculation goes into producing one. Plus, there could be a good essay out of it.</p>
<p>And if monydad's son does want to design games, there is even a program for it at Champlain College.</p>
<p>We should hire someone just to help solidify daughter's list. She's so darn picky and I feel lost that it would be helpful for us to have a better list of options.</p>
<p>"But, in the end, kids have to find their own motivation"</p>
<p>Right, and all I was saying is, in the case of our friends' kid, he found this motivation from the college counselor they hired, and is now, though that exchange, motivated to prefer to do more things that his parents actually do prefer that he do, as well. Because he elected to listen to the counselor, not his parents. Whereas before, he was not so motivated. They did not have this influence on their son's life. The counselor they hired did.</p>
<p>It is possible a college counselor can have this effect, I have witnessed it.</p>
<p>Staying on topic..</p>
<p>And yes this is not the only way to influence behavior. And yes kids may not want to do, of their own volition, what we might want them to do. And maybe that's just too bad on us. But maybe not.</p>
<p>Sometimes it is better to have an outsider work with students rather than the parents. There can be some interaction, relationship things that just don't work out well in some families, with some parents, with some kids. I know my kids do much, much better work in terms of chores and errands for the neighbors than they do for me or for themselves. If they are cleaning up the yard for our neighbor, they do so with little or no complaining and do a great job. If it's our yard, I have to remind, nag, bribe,threaten, and there is a good chance the job is not done well. The same goes for test prep and other such things. For such kids, if the money is there, it can be well spent sparing the family stress to have an outside counselor working with a kid.</p>
<p>I've not used an outside counselor, but I wish I had with my last two kids. It would have reduced a lot of stress, and I would have had some outside feedback from someone with all of my kids' college info and who was our advocate. If the person was very knowledgeable and doing his job, it would have really been a big help. I also think that my kids would have not dragged their feet on some things when they had to have them in hand for a session with some outside counselor. It's nothing to them to put mom off.</p>
<p>"But, in the end, kids have to find their own motivation. And they just might not be motivated to achieve at the level parents would prefer.</p>
<p>[crossposted with pugmadkate, and I agree with her about parental influence]"</p>
<p>???how can you agree, the two posts completely contradict each other!</p>
<p>the one said we parents have tremendous influence, and you can get the kids to do what you want, without spending money on third parties.</p>
<p>The other said, the kids have to find their own motivation, you just have to be satisfied with what they decide to become.</p>
<p>No two stances could possibly be more contradictory !</p>
<p>Parents have considerable influence but often that influence has limits...and healthily, it <em>should</em> have limits, even if we sometimes grouse about it.</p>
<p>And the students will often "hear" things from a third-party that they would turn a deaf ear to if coming from a parent. </p>
<p>And so it goes.</p>
<p>I also want to add that it can help parents also, to have a more unbiased opinion from someone experienced and knowledgeable about colleges who has examined your kids' papers. Sometimes parents get off on the wrong tangent and need someone to call attention to that. When it's personal, your biases can get in the way. </p>
<p>I have a feeling that using college counselors is going to be right there with taking SAT prep courses. Many high schools just do not have the man power in their counseling departments to be very helpful to kids and families who are going through the college app process. Some school counselors are terribly ignorant and uninterested in this process. It does put those kids at such schools at a disadvantage. I know that a goodly number of kids in my area and my kids' schools did use counselors, and though there have been murmurs of the counselor chosen not being a good as hoped, I have not seen adverse results. This thing about admissions offices that can catch overly packaged apps has not been the experience I have seen. I know too many kids at top schools who had a lot of help on their essays and app packaging.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I feel that athletic scholarships should play a role in Ivy athletics...anyone on the same page?
[/quote]
I also have a strong opinion ... in every way I LOVE that the IVYies do NOT give either athletic or merit scholarships ... I prefer all aid money go to reduce the cost for those in financial need ... just one alumns opinion.</p>
<p>Fendrock, about the "actual skills", I believe working with the excellent counselor gave DS several. He will now handle any application, whether for scholarships, fellowships, grants or anything else, much more strategically. He learned to be more thoughtful, more focused on his audience, more evaluative and to write in his own voice.</p>
<p>He also took what he wanted in HS, spent his free time doing what he wanted to do and chose a few colleges. But he realized he would have to communicate his passions and activities clearly and concisely, and felt for him it was a good thing to have a little help in tying it all together for the people who would evaluate him on those efforts.</p>
<p>I have no objection to using a counselor as a facilitator, if one can afford it.</p>
<p>My objection is more in the area of thinking that a counselor will have significant impact on the outcome, ie, succeed in making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And if you are working with a silk purse, you will do fine on your own.</p>
<p>Also, to monydad's situation, there are plenty of schools which make admissions decisions pretty much on the basis of GPA, test scores, and a completion of the necessary high school courses. It won't matter one jot what the student did with his/her spare time or what kind of essay he/she wrote. And it is further completely possible to attend one of these schools, get an education, find a job, and be a contributing member of society.</p>
<p>I agreed with pugmadkate that you have far more influence in your son's life than any outsider you can hire. That is in no way the same as saying a parent can get a kid to do what s/he wants.</p>
<p>I do believe the entire college application process is a "game". And because of this both kids and parents need a "game plan." In the same way that in the real world "you dress for the job you want, not the job you have", kids need to learn that what they do today (or in 8th grade, 10th grade,etc) impacts their futures. Parents model that behavior and, oftentimes, have to help their kids formulate the plan.</p>
<p>In our case this meant helping D2 to hone her ECs to both her skills and her interests. Her resume shows 2 significant, concentrated ECs - both based on her passions. Now that she has her acceptance, she wants to coast on one of her ECs. But I explained to her that now she needs a "game plan" for the next 4 years -- what summer internships does she want? what classes does she want to take? where does she want to go next? and how is she going to get there? By coasting now (she wants to drop a specific opportunity she has for the Spring), it may impact opportunities in the future. </p>
<p>We started the college acceptance strategy with her in 10th grade (after a particularly devasting application season with D1). We recognized that a strategy was needed for D2 to get into the best college for her. Though we didn't hire a private college counselor, we did hire a private athletic recruiting counselor. We realized that we didn't know enough about that particular game to give it our best effort. Said counselor certainly didn't do the work for D2, but did guide us through the maze of athletic recruiting. Their help was invaluable. Could I have done it by myself? Possibly. Could she have done it by herself? Not a chance.</p>
<p>Like athletic recruiting, this college application game is new to many, many families. Even if you know CC and books and websites, there is no guarantee that you have all (or even most) of the parts. The nuances are only gained through experience. </p>
<p>Just like any other game, practice makes perfect. If you need a private counselor to be the coach, do it!</p>
<p>fendrock, thank you for making me aware of that. I will inform our friends. I'm sure they wil pull out the college counselor, have their kid go back to playing video games with my son, and they will be happy you shared this insight. The kids will all grow up to be contributing members of society, in any event.</p>
<p>The sarcasm really isn't necessary monydad.</p>
<p>I'm trying to make the point that it isn't necessary to groom kids within an inch of their lives, and that there are solutions other than paying a college counselor thousands of dollars.</p>
<p>If the implication is that a kid who can't make it into an ivy is a sow's ear, I had 2. I think they may well have benefited from the help more than my ivy silk purse. Unfortunately I didn't know what I didn't know with the first 2.</p>
<p>It's not just for kids who are applying to super selective schools who can use a college counselor. Sometimes the money is very well spent if looking for merit awards. I know that in our case, we really took financial safety as a big issue. There are many parents who are not aware of the issues and options available. </p>
<p>There are kids for whom an independent counselor is just the icing on the cake. They will do fine with their apps. There are some for whom it is a waste of money, as they do not care enough for getting one will make much if any difference. There is a spectrum in between that can benefit in varying degrees. The issue is whether it is worth the cost.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No two stances could possibly be more contradictory !
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I see them as working together well. </p>
<p>We used our parental power to deal with an issue that had gone beyond, in our opinion, healthy moderation. But we did not pick out the substitue activies. He had to decide that on his own. We took moaning about it to us out of the picture by handing him a bucket or a rake and having him do chores if he was "bored." If he wanted to discuss an idea, we were all ears and ready to support him.</p>
<p>In otherwords, we controlled the enviroment in the way we thought was healthy and then let him make his own choices. He's not an adult. He still needs a nudge in the right direction. Not by following our plan but by coming up with his own. </p>
<p>I also do not consider taking the position that this is your kid's passion and so go with it to be wrong. It's not what we chose but it's still valid. There are magazines and books about these games. There are camps and programs where kids learn how to start designing their own. Personally, one of my big goals for my kid is for him to get off of my payroll. Your kid has a hobby that he can potentially make a living at. Persuing how to handle his hobby in a more constructive way sounds like a good plan to me.</p>
<p>.. and my point is that, in this one case I know, the counseling process has had the side effect of having this kid engage in useful and productive activities, in my opinion, that are likely to enrich his life more than what he would have elected to do on his own. And to me, from where I sit, that is a nice thing. For me, it's not about whether the kid has activities to put on his college application, so much as whether he is doing stuff that will contribute to a more enriched, fulfilled life, moreso than what he might have otherwise done on his own. I think this is happening with our friends' kid. They were not doing it with that intent, but it is having this side effect which to me seems attractive. Not to the point where I am going to pay for that, but it seems like a good thing, to me. From where I sit, with my kid.</p>
<p>YMMV, and evidently does.</p>
<p>FWiW, I do not agree that the two stances work together well, they are contradictory. you would not let your kid just sit there playing video games, you did something about it. The other poster thinks this is undo influence,, let him be what he will be, he can still be a productive member of society. Does not appear to approve of "nudges in right direction", as you do.
If you two both think these work together, bully for you both. </p>
<p>But in any event , each kid is different, and each situation is different. But I admire how our friends' situation is working out for their kid. College aside.</p>
<p>Thanks for the information, Columbia. (And she's right, Dean J, the notes are NOT likely letters.) It's good to know because everyone around here thinks if you get one you're in--since everyone at the high school who has gotten one in the past has been admitted.</p>
<p>Actually, what I said was that if I had not decided to take away the system, then taking a proactive approach (not just being annoyed/wishful thinking) seems a good choice. I do not see the two in conflict, rather choices that can be blended together on various aspects of the same problem. </p>
<p>This worked for your friends kid, what is going to work with your kid? That's the question for you now.</p>