<p>If I become interested in having a CC message board panel help solve issues with my kid, I will be sure to start a thread on that topic on the Parent's cafe, or something.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I was just reporting on some side benefits I perceived that the college counseling process has had on one kid; as I thought that was on-topic to this particular thread here.</p>
<p>I was attempting to respond in kind -- ie, in the college application process, will it make a difference if the kid plays video games? (in my view, not necessarily) and</p>
<p>Should one pay a college counselor to assist in changing a kid's behavior? (in my view, if one has plenty of $$$ it may make sense to pay someone to help get apps done, otherwise no)</p>
<p><a href="he%20attends%20a%20highly%20regarded%20prep%20school%20that%20turns%20out%20a%20pretty%20good%20business%20that%20way,%20but%20he's%20not%20playing%20that%20game">quote=pennypac</a>
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</p>
<p>Your kid is attending a "highly-regarded prep school"?</p>
<p>And you scoff at parents who hire private counselors?</p>
<p>Oh.</p>
<p>Yeah, just slide that tray of cookies into the oven. But make sure that it's a special tray and a special oven ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here's what my daughter did. She took the classes she wanted to take in high school. She spent her free time doing what she wanted to do (albeit with support and encouragement from her parents). She applied to some colleges and was accepted to the one she wants to attend. She is looking forward to being a college student in the fall.</p>
<p>No gamesmanship in this story.
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<p>I haven't read the rest of the thread thoroughly after this post, but I want to point out one thing.</p>
<p>As an international from a country that sends a lot of people to the US - from the beginning, it's a given that if we want to go to a top university (Nat'l U of Singapore being relatively highly ranked and with NUS admission almost entirely stats-based, few students will contemplate safeties or even matches in the US - only reaches), we have to have the stats, but you won't see people fretting about the stats, or about how their CVs look. Passionate about theatre? Watch the volunteer and EC hours rack up as the hours fly by. Soccer, hockey, tennis, rugby or canoeing captain? Winning for the school comes first, and when they apply to college it's just a line on their resume (if this sounds preposterous to you, I assure you it's true. I think my school's tennis captain/vice-cap is on here somewhere, and she was a national tennis champion before she even thought about college applications.)</p>
<p>As for college counseling - nonexistent. You want to apply, you go do your own research. You can go to teachers for advice if you know who to ask (not all are familiar with the process), but they won't make your lists for you or coordinate your recs and transcripts or call colleges up for you. SAT tuition? I don't know a single person who took SAT tuition, and I don't know a single person whose first-sitting scores would put him/her out of contention at top-tier schools. Private college counseling - what?</p>
<p>Yes, the students here are super motivated, and confident enough to believe that if they do the work, the adcoms will recognize their abilities (in and out of the classroom) for what they are. But since this is the CC crowd, I don't think I'm describing too foreign a scenario in terms of academic and EC standards. So why the need for private college counselors?</p>
<p>I can honestly say I don't know anyone who did things specifically for the CV, or who tried to make something that wasn't sound like it is. (My civics tutor/form teacher was more worried about my prospects than I was because I didn't take part in school-based ECs in my last two years. She made me volunteer at a school event, and gave me the dud title of class rep or something like that. Neither is on any of my resumes.)</p>
<p>I'm looking at the posts around here, and I'm noticing that the application process here is so heavily directed by parents, teachers, school-based guidance counselors and - let's get this right - paid, third-party admissions experts. I understand that as a parent (yes, I'm a student who just finished applying) you want to make sure that your kids get a good education, and sometimes the student doesn't seem to have that driving force to get things done. Maybe, yes, hiring a counselor helps the student overcome admissions-related and academic and EC inertia, relieves the parents of some stress, and gives the kid access to information and resources he/she has not had. But it can't be the ideal state of affairs, not when there are students who make it into and through college without gaming the system and without someone to push them; no matter how you look at it, the ability of a person to motivate himself is very important, and there's little point making a student punch above his weight to go to a top college only to find he hasn't actually developed the work ethic or the skills or the self-understanding to make the best use of it.</p>
<p>I suppose what I'm saying is - there are students who don't set out to get themselves admitted to a university in a particular way. They set out to excel, apply to whatever and wherever interests them, and naturally find themselves in good universities. Maybe with a counselor you can "game" a kid into a school that they wouldn't be at otherwise, but is it really to anyone's benefit?</p>
<p>Well, the cookies in this case chose the oven, not me--I wouldn't have. Everywhere has attended has been on his initiative, whether it be the public magnet or the prep. But I appreciate your sarcasm. The point is, he has been given choices up and down the line and he has always understood that there are consequences to every decision he makes. They're HIS consequences; I don't attempt to make them mine. That is to say, I live my own life--where I come from, you only get one to a customer.</p>
<p>phantompong, excellent post.</p>
<p>You are very articulate, and I expect you will do well -- without paying any third parties for assistance!</p>
<p>Phantom, perhaps the kids using counselors at your school simply don't talk about it. I have been asked by several colleagues in Singapore, whose children attend the top schools there, for counselor recommendations and I know many relationships came to fruition.</p>
<p>I know my DS doesn't talk about it, and lo and behold, one of the counselor's children ended up in his college class. He really liked that counselor so I asked him if he introduced himself. He asked if I was crazy.</p>
<p>TheGFG - </p>
<p>About the private vs. public hs - the private hs school here is so pitiful that when the kids wise up and try to get into the public hs they test so low they are usually put back a year. It's all about the $ and prestige. Little Johnny gets passing grades, the school gets the parents' check and the parents' get to brag they send their kid to private school. Everyone wins except Little Johnny.</p>
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[quote]
Those notes are called "likely letters" at many schools. Search for the term and you'll find many, many threads about them.
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<p>Not the same thing. I know someone whose kid received special notes from admissions about her essays and so forth at one school--really, a lot of attention--and then was rejected.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Phantom, perhaps the kids using counselors at your school simply don't talk about it. I have been asked by several colleagues in Singapore, whose children attend the top schools there, for counselor recommendations and I know many relationships came to fruition.
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<p>Ahahaha. This is going to be touchy.</p>
<p>I can assure you kids at my school don't use counselors. I went to the top government school in my country. Rumors travel quickly within schools and hiring a private counselor would be seen as exasperatingly *kiasu<a href="afraid%20of%20losing">/i</a>. But there are two other schools with better results that are independent... I have many friends (none of whom used counselors, this I know for sure) at those schools, but the environment there is undoubtedly more competitive and I would not be that surprised if I heard stories. But I've heard nothing concrete.</p>
<p>I have an extensive opinion on this, but it's very Singapore-specific. And there are Singaporeans about... so I'll let you draw your own conclusions.</p>
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Well, the cookies in this case chose the oven, not me--I wouldn't have. Everywhere has attended has been on his initiative, whether it be the public magnet or the prep. But I appreciate your sarcasm.
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<p>Good.</p>
<p>How many students per guidance counselor at your "highly-regarded" prep school? </p>
<p>Look, it's nice that your kid was able to "choose" a public magnet and a "highly-regarded prep school." Lots of very talented kids don't have access to either, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is location.</p>
<p>It's simply not very becoming for someone whose kid is probably getting all the extra attention he needs by virtue of attending a "highly-regarded prep school" to sneer at other parents for trying to do their best for their kids by acquiring sufficient guidance. (And most people who do so are not paying Ivywise $25K to help their kid land a publishing contract and plagiarize a book. Most of them are probably investing one or two thousand dollars, max. At least around here.)</p>
<p>Per Justmytwocents:
[quote]
Similarly your son or daughter may have their hearts set on Williams, be talked into applying ED to Hamilton because the counselor convinces them they won't get into Williams (and that they'll only get into Hamilton ED - not that there's anything the least bit wrong or bad about Hamilton!), and then counted in their "First Choice" stats.
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<p>This is exactly what I think is the rule and not the exception. Although agreeably, Hamilton is a fine, fine school. But, as they say, it's not HPY by a long shot. Admittedly, we knew going in that S's ED application to the Big Green was a big reach, for a lot of reasons. Then I stumbled upon CC and, that it was even possible, knew it to be even more true. However, once S got back on the application wave by his counselor, she did not recommend that he apply anywhere EDII except as it MIGHT apply to athletics and only if he could really get behind that decision. And now, more than ever, I am so glad our counseling office takes so much of the ownership of this process. Well. that they make the kids take so much of it. It allows me to vent/comment on here, and although it might be true that my son's essay might be something that's already been done, I know for sure that it is his voice. Polished he may not be, but it is sincere for sure.</p>
<p>btw: beyond Tufts admissions saying africa might be overdone, it wasn't as if this was a social awareness mission. He went on a private safari with my sister, who as a biology teacher, very much made it a huge learning experience. Still, it was a trip of a lifetime, not my money that sent him and it just sounded as if it would come off as OVERLY elite and privileged, which wouldn't necessarily be reflective of who he is in the least, let alone on a regular basis. It was almost too special of a trip. However, the biggest things he realized on this trip is that 1) he's never felt so white in his life and 2) we are but very small cogs in a very large machine and 3) if you don't know what to compare your life to, it's easy to see that happiness is clearly a state of mind.</p>
<p>In any event: All of this private counseling stuff is like any kind of marketing or advertising in a way. If you agree with something or have done it or want it, you attune and believe in any promotion or hype simply because it agrees with an already formed sensibility. Much like quitting smoking -- all the commercials in the world in how to quit are going to go by unnoticed unless you are ready to quit and all the billboards and magazine ads selling a particular brand are going to be ignored if you have never and will never smoke.</p>
<p>"Here's what my daughter did. She took the classes she wanted to take in high school. She spent her free time doing what she wanted to do (albeit with support and encouragement from her parents). She applied to some colleges and was accepted to the one she wants to attend. She is looking forward to being a college student in the fall.</p>
<p>No gamesmanship in this story."</p>
<p>Fendrock, we need to develop a secret handshake so that if we ever meet each other in public, we will recognize one another.</p>
<p>"I'm certainly not a supporter or encourager of his video game time. If that makes me a bad parent, so be it."</p>
<p>Monydad, it doesn't make you a bad parent, it just means you have to go further. As you well know, each kid is different (the biggest surprise of parenthood for me), and we have to do differently for each of them, sometimes. In your (your son's) case, it might mean intervention, but how much more difficult would that intervention be if it were you instead of a third party? I'll tell you how much more: A lot. Worth Every Pain in the Ass. No guarantees. But that's where it is.</p>
<p>See post #241</p>
<p>Right, sorry; I posted when reading three pages back. Good luck.</p>
<p>Consolation,</p>
<p>I assume choosing would have ventured down other channels if the ones open for him were blocked. There's a lot of water out there.</p>
<p>Also, as an afterthought, I don't know the answer to your question--probably two or three to a hundred. We don't really rely on them; my son considers them among the 40% so he doesn't utilize their services, but I'm sure they're good at what they do.</p>
<p>My son tried to teach himself to play the guitar. He actually made a lot of progress, because he was motivated. But he has progressed much faster since we hired a teacher for him. By the same token, I thought he wrote really good essays for his college apps, but when our friend the private college counselor looked at them, she made some suggestions that, in my opinion, enabled him to substantially improve them. I think he was a silk purse already, but her comments made him a bit silkier. You really can't know, though, how much it helps.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I recall they were not likely letters but rather notes or letters that the AOs liked the essays.
[/QUOTE]
Gotcha. Many admission officers will send a note or email when an essay strikes a chord (one of my colleagues does it to get permission to use great essays in his presentations). I hope they aren't seen as misleading. I make it clear that there are still a few rounds of reading before decisions are final. Most students reply and seem to understand.</p>
<p>I think it's mean to send a note of that sort if an admission letter will be on the way. Of course kids/parents/teachers will think it is code for "you're in"</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many admission officers will send a note or email when an essay strikes a chord (one of my colleagues does it to get permission to use great essays in his presentations). I hope they aren't seen as misleading.
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</p>
<p>Dean J -- Unfortunately, I think notes of this sort are deeply misleading and should not be sent. Savvy students learn to distinguish what's coming from the Marketing office from what's coming from the Admissions office. If it comes from Marketing, they know (or should know) it's meaningless. But a handwritten note praising YOUR essay from an admissions officer who is evaluating YOUR application is interpreted as a love note, and it raises expectations, IMO reasonably. I know a young woman who received such a note from a top liberal arts college last year, and was crushed a month later when she was not admitted. She would have been disappointed with the admission result had she not received the note, but not shocked.</p>