<p>^^How can the school possibly block a kid from taking subject tests? If you send the College Board your forms and your money, you can take the test.</p>
<p>^^At son's school they include some reaches that IMO are too reachy, and they make sure the student has safeties. The last thing the GCs want are 100s of phone calls to make on behalf of students who are not accepted anywhere! What stress!</p>
<p>Our hs is about the size of gladmom's and we have 4 GCs, although one of them has part GC responisiblilities and part just administrative. All 4 are there full time.</p>
<p>The story about GCs sitting in the office on New Year's Day waiting to help out Muffy and Tripp when they are freaking over their last-minute applications . . . that floors me! I've never heard anything like it. I don't think Modadunn is lying, of course, but that sure isn't the service standard for elite private schools in this area.</p>
<p>I think you can certainly do much of this yourself, but even after my own diligence, I have to admit, I think the private counselor we used was very beneficial and very much worth the money. Wish I'd used her for my older two.</p>
<p>There are lots of people with money and no time. This is who I believe they help in particular.</p>
<p>Then there are those of us with the political workings at private schools. My sister's oldest goes to a boarding school with a bit over 100 in a class and 3 college counselors. All of them are ex ivy or the like adcom. Her family is not among the wealthy at this very wealthy place, extended family is paying the tuition. Her DD was assigned the weak counselor who is prodding the daughter to apply ED next year to the school her father went to although it's far from her first choice. This is exactly what happened to DS last year at his HS. </p>
<p>Because I'm a Penn alum and DH went to grad school at Stanford, those were the schools he was expected to consider early. No matter that he was not interested in either. Another child at his HS, the son of a Yale alum, got in and chose a top LAC instead. His counselor was livid, there went her bonus!</p>
<p>Guess what I gave my niece for Christmas? Right, access to the private counselor.</p>
<p>I think we need another thread, probably on the prep school board, the dirty secrets of prep school college counseling.</p>
<p>Counselors are in the business of guidance? Who knew! We haven't had a decent one in at least 4 years. For two years, one here was terminally ill but instead of concerning themselves with the hundreds of students, they just closed her door and that was that. The first two years of hs D didn't even know the name of hers because they were never in their office, never returned a phone call, and kept quiting every other week. Last year we were able to meet with one of them and the only thing memorable was her telling top 3% D that getting pregnant was an option to going to college.... </p>
<p>Ok, I'll wait while you get off the floor...</p>
<p>It was just the other day that I made her go in and introduce herself to the latest new one they hired for her portion of the alphabet. All I have to say is thank goodness for the Top 10% rule (and CC) because we're doing the college search on our own.</p>
<p>These stories of private counselors are making me appreciate our overworked but competant public school counselors more. (And I've heard similar concerns from my sister-in-law whose son attended one of the best private schools in DC.) Our counselors have a large number of students to take care of, but they do stay with them for four years. They've got a system for college counseling where they meet parents in large groups to go over the basics including separate evenings on scholarships and financial aid, and another one on athletic scholarships. They have a big college night aimed at juniors in the spring where they have dozens of admissions counselors come and talk in smallish seminars. They meet with the kids in small groups and then sometime junior year spring they set up meetings with parents to put together preliminary lists and they have another meeting in the fall. They send home a lot of paperwork explaining how the process works. They seem to be on top of the newest developments - such as buying the Naviance software a few years back.</p>
<p>Everything JHS has said about his large public school holds true for ours. I've even heard my youngest say he can't imagine going to a college smaller than his high school. With well over 3000 students, that cuts out a lot of LACs! (He may yet change his mind - after all this was the kid who liked the looks of Caltech best when big brother was visiting colleges and they only have about 900 undergrads - though the much larger number of grad students makes it feel less tiny.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
that floors me! I've never heard anything like it. I don't think Modadunn is lying, of course, but that sure isn't the service standard for elite private schools in this area.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Had two kids go to privates--a Friends School in the DC area (not Sidwell) and a boarding school in the greater Boston area. Great GC services--personal attention, counselors who could make calls on behalf of students to certain colleges, etc. That being said--none of them spent Christmas break working on college admissions; if they did, they weren't in the office. In both instances, my kids had to have all the apps ready to go before they left for the Christmas break.</p>
<p>Youngest D attended a small, public high school with strong academics but less than stellar GCs who despite the fact that graduating classes were small (70-100 kids) didn't really know the kids. Mostly, they were in the business of processing applications. Despite that--most of the students were successful because parents were working with their kids or hiring private Cs. This is a small, affluent community where 99% of every class goes to college. Youngest D's class of 100 had 4 kids go to Ivies and another 15 go to top 20 LACs and national universities and another 15 who went to lower-ranked tier 1 schools. Kids who did go to our state U were almost always in the Honors College and went primarily because of family finances. It surprises me that the results here (in terms of colleges the graduates attended) weren't significantly different than those of the two private schools.</p>
<p>One thing that the private college counselor can do is take the parent/child conflict out of the picture. Instead of the parent being the one nagging the kid to identify a safety, for example, the counselor can tell the kid that they need a balanced list. Since it isn't a parent telling them, they may even listen!</p>
<p>I begged our GC on several occasions to help identify suitable safeties for my S, who had a top-heavy list, and never got a single suggestion from her. Not one.</p>
<p>I will say that our guidance office had the mechanics of sending out transcripts and GC recs down pat, and did a very competent job there.</p>
<p>I didn't use a counselor and my job is done after these 2 get settled wherever that may be. I think that one of the CC/GC problems is that nobody lays out exactly what job belongs to whom. At some schools it is important for the student to take the initiative to get to know the guidance counselor, at others the gc doesn't have time to get to know them....but I am not sure why schools can't say flat out- here is exactly what you can expect from us and here is exactly what we recommend that you make sure you have covered. Send it out every year from 9th grade on. Big schools can send kids to on-line sites that give good matches and safety's based on numbers. Parent's can't expect schools to do the job of the parent's- but schools should at least make clear what they are going to do from their end and do it- so parent's can plan accordingly. If the extent of their abilities is to get the transcripts and paperwork out- then parents shouldn't be led to think otherwise.</p>
<p>Not trusting the GC office of private prep schools could be another thread but we probably shouldnt' address it as it will only serve to make us more paranoid. The thing we all know is that "the squeaky" wheel, as well as the diamond-studded one get's the grease. That is just the way the world works and parents should plan count on that as the standard and not the exception.</p>
<p>My recommendation to a friend was no matter what the role of you GC- somebody has to be Master and Commander of the college ship- outside of that GC- whether it is you (the parent), your very independent kid with plenty of time or a hired consultant. The entire process is too time consuming and overwhelmeing to expect that some over-worked, non-invested GC is going to have the ability to stay up on the details. </p>
<p>I'm sick so please pardon my negative attitude.</p>
<p>My kids go to a private in NJ, they have 4 GCs to 120 kids, many of them are advisors to those kids from 11-12th. They do get to know the kids very well. Over 30% of kids go to top 20s, but I am not sure if it's really to those GCs' credit because most of those kids are legacies or atheletes. The school is very PC, the GCs do not limit number of schools admitted EA students could apply during RD, or let applicants know what type of students are applying to schools they are interested in. As an example, if you are interested in applying to U Penn and Cornell and if you know 5 atheletes are being recruited by Penn and only 2 kids are applying to Cornell, maybe you would want to place your bet on Cornell.</p>
<p>The positive was we were very lucky to have a GC that always put our D1 first. Whenever I had a different view or strategy, she would always consult D1 before she gave me an answer. She was relentless in calling schools our D1 was waitlisted at. At the end, I think well known private school's GC value is their ability to get their kids off the waitlists. We had a top student that was shut out by every single school, but waitlisted by Harvard. She was able to get a deferred admission for the following year.</p>
<p>I discovered CC very late for D1, but by Spring I knew as much about college process as some of those GCs, and more. The only difference is I didn't have access to adcoms like those GCs. For our D2, I am going to do the research and come up with a strategy with our D2 for the GC to execute(I will push them to make calls for D2). I don't know what an average college counselor could do for your kid that you couldn't learn from CC. I wouldn't pay for a private college counselor, unless he has connections.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It surprises me that the results here (in terms of colleges the graduates attended) weren't significantly different than those of the two private schools.
[/quote]
As per what I wrote above, it doesn't surprise me at all. Kids with the same demographics, the same kinds of families, and the same test scores/academic achievement generally get admitted to the same colleges. The school and the GCs can make a difference, but I think mainly at the margin -- it's imperfect insurance, not a guarantee of a step up for everyone. </p>
<p>It's hardly a scientific sample, but each of my kids had a few friends in their public high school who had been at one of several high-quality private schools for middle school, so basically they were very similar to private-school students. These kids were generally academically successful at the public school, but to varying degrees. To the best of my memory, here's where they went to college: Yale (x2), Harvard, Chicago (x2), Brown (x3), Smith (x2, one with a full-tuition merit scholarship), Penn, Pitt (x3, one turning down Penn on economic grounds), Howard, Brandeis, Carleton, Beloit (turning down better-known LACs for more money), Lawrence, Hamilton. That looks pretty much like a private-school list to me. Great counseling and school support might have made a difference for 3 or 4 of the 20 kids. One of the Smiths didn't get accepted to any college as a HS senior, because her application strategy consisted of wishful thinking, and that wouldn't have happened at a private school. One of the Pitts might have done better. The private schools don't send a lot of students to Howard (but that was why that kid wasn't at a private school anymore).</p>
<p>
[quote]
One thing that the private college counselor can do is take the parent/child conflict out of the picture.
[/quote]
For the people we know who have hired private counselors, this has been the main reason.</p>
<p>I think most of you people are nuts. I guess this is what passes for conspiracy theory among those who swim with the high and mighty, but to me it just looks like an insipid, pallid knock-off of the worst kind of television melodrama. You can hire anyONE to do anyTHING, even people who "specialize" in getting your--what are they, children?--into brand name colleges. Just do the work. It's like baking cookies; it doesn't take much. Keep an eye on them to make sure they don't burn, pull 'em out of the oven when their ready, and send them on their way when the time is right. Voila! Come on, enough now.</p>
<p>S1 and S2 have/are looking at schools outside the usual corridor where their peers apply. Advantage: geographic diversity and less competition from classmates. Disadvantage: not enough applicants on Naviance to gauge chances accurately, less familiarity with S2's intense program. </p>
<p>S1's GC knew him pretty well and S1 (and we) gave her lots of material to work with for the letter. The school had S complete a series of short essays, and we had to as well. This helped to compensate for the student load these folks have at this large, impacted urban HS. She was VERY supportive of S's choices, as he was looking at strong, selective schools that were eager to get kids from his program.</p>
<p>S2's GC seems more overworked and at one point made some inappropriate comments about S vs. some of her other advisees (but no comments about getting pregnant, though! WOW.). She also seems pretty unfamiliar with schools outside the realm.</p>
<p>Both kids have attended competitive admission programs since mid-elementary school, so we are familiar with the drill as far as essays, testing, etc. We've considered hiring a private counselor, but I went to a free presentation to public HS parents by one well-regarded counselor two years ago and she was unfamiliar with the public school programs. Never mind! Between my search skills and CC, we have been able to cobble together a fairly coherent knowledge base and tailor it to each of my kids. </p>
<p>One thing we did that was worth the money was to have Dave Berry review S1's list of schools, stats, etc. via StatsEval. It cost $89 at the time -- it has gone up since, but it was an excellent reality check and Dave was right on the money re: which schools would be the best fit for S1 and the likelihood of getting in. We will do the same for S2, who will have a somewhat lopsided application. We especially want to get some advice on LACs and schools not in the tippy-top tier.</p>
<p>Agree that one cannot count on the GC to manage the application process.</p>
<p>"For the people we know who have hired private counselors, this has been the main reason."</p>
<p>I agree- most people that I know use their hired couselor for their understanding of the system and to take the parent/child conflict out of the picture. </p>
<p>pennypac- cookies do nothing but bake just the way you put them into the oven, they don't move, they don't make mistakes they just sit in the oven till you take them out. Most of us are trying to guide our kids so that they will be able to make the most out of their talents, hard work and desires. Ignorance is not bliss and at least my children would not last in my oven for 5 seconds before stiring up some delicious trouble and attempting to be a cake!!! </p>
<p>Please have mercy on the many different types of families and family situations that frequent these boards. We are all just trying to do our best at our jobs- and mine isn't cooking baking for the record. Though sometimes I feel I am putting together a puzzle that somebody switched out a bunch of the pieces.</p>
<p>Currently Son is 8th grade at a private day school. If we can't afford to keep him there we decided we WILL require a hired counselor. </p>
<p>Why?</p>
<p>Because since his private school got a counselor we have seen the last 2 graduating classes receive 10 x (no exageration) the merit & FA then the prior 6 grad classes.</p>
<p>My son is a strong student. He'll get into a good school, but not sure we will be able to afford it. A counselor can not only help us with the "packaging" but guide us to the schools that offer the most aid for us. I don't care if he comes out with an IVY degree, I only care that he comes out with as little debt as possible -- I belive the lack of debt will really give him career options since he won't need to make huge debt repayments.</p>
<p>And in case your wondering, I'm not an overbearing Mom and I'm not planning his college now. I've been helping my niece with college</p>
<p>2by2</p>
<p>It's not a question of mercy; finally, it's a question of love. What do expectations have to do with it? If they want to be cake, let them be cake. Reality is uniform; it is what it is. You can move your pieces here or there in an attempt to complete the picture, but what you do has very little consequence in the final outcome. That will be regulated by powers that are out of your control. And let's all be thankful for that.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it makes no sense to hire someone to do something that you can do on your own. Does it take research, time and effort - absolutely. Can it be done if you are willing to put in the time and effort and also willing and able to work with your kids - again absolutely. We did it on our own and were very happy with the results. Both on full or almost full scholarships at their first choice schools (both top 20). Did it take time and effort on both our and the kids part - absolutely - but it was well worth it. Besides the financial benefit, it was a great opportunity to bond (granted that there were a few rough spots at times). The school GC provided a great rec, but we never used her for advice as to which schools should be on the list. Unfortunately the guidance department had minimum knowledge concerning top schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To the best of my memory, here's where they went to college: Yale (x2), Harvard, Chicago (x2), Brown (x3), Smith (x2, one with a full-tuition merit scholarship), Penn, Pitt (x3, one turning down Penn on economic grounds), Howard, Brandeis, Carleton, Beloit (turning down better-known LACs for more money), Lawrence, Hamilton. That looks pretty much like a private-school list to me.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dear JHS, I hate to do this but since there was another thread about the "misrepresentation" of academic versus need-based aid (see <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/636130-academic-merit-money-ivies.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/636130-academic-merit-money-ivies.html</a>) , I hope you'll forgive my pointing out that The Zollman Scholarship is the college's highest academic scholarship at Smith. This scholarship of $20,000 per year for four years is awarded to fewer than ten first-year students based on their exceptional promise for Smith. Zollman Scholars are also invited to participate in the STRIDE paid research program. (First-year U.S. citizens) </p>
<p>Source: Smith</a> College: Financial Aid</p>
<p>As many know, Mini's daughter was the recipient of such award and the he/she tandem has offered many details about how this scholarship works in tandem with the Stride scholarship. However, simply stated there is no such thing as a full tuition merit scholarship at Smith, let alone a full ride. </p>
<p>Obviously, this does not diminish the remaining elements of your post. However, it does also highlight one of the greatest dangers that enters about every conversation about college admissions: misinformation, misdirection, and untimely data. One extremely unfortunate element of college guidance is that the jobs are often filled by unqualified (by lack of knowledge or lack of keeping abreast of quick changes) employees who end up in admissions by attrition. For this reason, people who can afford it realize that their best bet is to hire additional help in the form of experts. This is not much different from seeking the advice of a "city" specialist when the nice and decent family doctor shows the limits of his village experience. </p>
<p>For the past 5-6 years, I have been an unabated cheerleader for the DYI College process. I recommend to invest a few bucks in a few official books on SAT preparation, a few books written by the supertstars who started a decade ago (read Hernandez, Bauld, et al) and add many drops of sweat. On the other hand, I also have talked to and learned to appreciate the considerable knowledge and expertise of highly priced and highly prized counselors. In certain cases, the results obtained are nothing short of a bargain. After all, why would an attorney or Wall Street executives slave reading the finer points of College Confidential when he can get an admission guru for the value of a few hours (or minutes) of his precious time? Would we expect Barack Obama to read our forums when he'll try to help the little Obamas to get into Yale, Columbia, or Harvard? Will he rely exclusively on the advisors at the DC private empire? </p>
<p>People do what makes the more sense to them. For some, the local college counselor is OK; for many more self-help and experts are a much better option.</p>
<p>Does anyone know of any private college advisors in South Florida? I googled it and still couldn't find anything worth investigating.</p>
<p>seiclan, location of counselor really should not matter. They work remotely. Some run workshops in large cities that the kids attend for a few days, but most work is on the phone and online.</p>
<p>Penny, IMO you can take 2 kids with the same resume, give one no help and the other a great counselor (could easily be the parent), and their college results would be very different at top 30 and good merit aid colleges. The last thing it is is out of your control.</p>
<p>Notnim, you bring up an excellent point. A great counselor who understand how to get merit aid would be of great value.</p>