Disadvantages of joining a sorority?

Parents Forum
621

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<p>Hanna, I am JUST playing devil’s advocate here, just so you understand :-). I am going to make the assumption that you and your hypothetical U of I-going daughter here are white; if I am wrong, please correct me. </p>

<p>If your hypothetical D wanted to play lacrosse, or join the theater club, or newspaper club, or the Young Republicans (heaven forbid! LOL), and those organizations were disproportionately white compared to the campus at large, would you discourage those activities too?</p>

<p>I guess what I’m saying is (and H and I just had this discussion) … We want our kids going to places where not-everyone-is-just-like-them (upper middle class white Jewish kids from the 'burbs), but by the same token, not an explicit goal of mine that they go Find a Black / Hispanic / Muslim / Whatever Friend. In other words, let it happen organically / naturally through shared interests, versus a conscious commitment. Does that make sense? (As it turns out, 2 of my D’s closest friends happen to be Muslim. But it wasn’t an explicit goal to “go find a Muslim friend” - they were just attracted to one another as friends and so it went.) I hope I’m making sense here. I’m trying to distinguish between wanting a diverse environment and specifically seeking out friends of different backgrounds on the basis of the background, as opposed to on the basis of common interests / friendship.</p>

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<p>Honestly, all of my closest friends in RL are white. And they’re all either Catholic or Jewish, apparently no WASPs need apply :slight_smile: I don’t know if that’s good or bad. It just is.</p>

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<p>I think on the contrary despite the fact whether majority white/Black/Asian sororities are better than other or not one thing is clear.</p>

<p>– If a sorority is as diverse as the campus at large than that it the bottom most sorority on the campus.</p>

<p>Believe it or not by virtue of selection process only the bottom most can have the same demographics as the campus at large. The more sought after the sorority is the more selective they tend to become and there by they are less likely to be more diverse.</p>

<p>These are facts.</p>

624

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<p>Exclusive in that their rush and intake process are REALLY hard! If you think NPC recruitment is tough - from the stories I’ve heard from gals in the Divine 9, it’s a cakewalk compared to the exclusivity and “requirements” to get in a Divine 9 group. </p>

<p>And they want it that way - because they are an exclusive private club who want the right to choose who they want to become a part of it. People who decide that they want to be a part of it know going into the process that it is going to be tough, and that they may be denied membership.</p>

<p>The ladies of the Divine Nine take immense pride in their organizations, and they are careful about who they let participate. That’s how it should be.</p>

625

<p>Sorry about the YouTube videos; I didn’t realize they were prohibited or I wouldn’t have posted them. But the still pictures Hanna posted from the University of Illinois make the same point: on a diverse campus, sororities are disproportionately white.</p>

626

<p>"If it were still a common practice and rational mindset, then applicants like you, Hanna, would not attend Harvard or go to law school, would they? "</p>

<p>But that’s exactly my point. When Harvard dropped its racial/ethnic admissions quotas, it didn’t just say, “Well, that’s not our practice any more” and watch the school stay the same. It deliberately hired diverse admissions officers to travel the country and advertise its inclusiveness. It set up a system whereby current students of color reach out to high schoolers of color to let them know that Harvard was looking for them, and that there would be a support network for them if they decided to come. It made sure all of its P.R. materials included diversity. It made its financial aid as generous as possible so that finances wouldn’t keep out the kind of students who previously hadn’t been welcome. As a result, today they have a wildly diverse student body, and the alumni of 50 years ago barely recognize the place.</p>

<p>If all you do is a drop your policy of racial/ethnic exclusiveness, what you will get is desegregation, not integration. Integration takes active work on the part of the institution to undo the patterns it set in the past and change the messages it sent.</p>

<p>“we humans tend to be attracted to those most like us, both in looks and habits”</p>

<p>Yes, that’s true. The question is, is it the role of the university to challenge those tendencies? Or should it be engaged in promoting and institutionalizing them (as when it sets aside housing for different groups)? Those questions are part of choosing a university that reflects your values, and in my case were a decisive part of choosing Harvard over Stanford.</p>

<p>ETA: Pizzagirl, I said that I would NOT discourage my white daughter from rushing. That said, I would be more concerned about the diversity of sororities than other kinds of clubs at U of I because the members live and eat together in their house. It’s a kind of immersion in the group that other clubs don’t have. I think my daughter would be sacrificing part of the university experience by moving in, and that’s why I’d have mixed feelings about it. This wouldn’t be an issue at a school like U of Chicago or Duke where sorority women still live and eat with everybody else.</p>

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<p>re: post #625, I understand, Cardinal Fang; it’s a frequently misunderstood clause and I was using this as a teachable moment for all.</p>

<p>Repeating Hannah’s link to an authoritative source of info: [University</a> of Illinois Panhellenic Council](<a href=“http://www.illiniphc.com/]University”>http://www.illiniphc.com/)</p>

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<p>This is a very interesting philosophical question you raise. Universities certainly promote / institutionalize religiously-based clubs such as, say, Hillel for Jewish students or (at NU) the Sheil Center for Catholic students. They certainly promote, say, Muslim student associations or East Asian student associations. These groups may get university funding or otherwise be recognized. I don’t see any problem with that.</p>

<p>There are now Asian fraternities and sororities, right? I don’t have a problem with that. Do I have a problem if a university had an all-black dorm specifically for the purpose of being a “home away from home” for AA students? I don’t think I have a problem with that, though I would with an all-white dorm, since I think it’s different when you’re the majority vs the minority class (just like Black History Month is different to me from White History Month).</p>

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<p>I don’t particularly care one way or another, and it’s a moot point for my D since only 2 campuses she is considering even have Greek systems, but I wouldn’t have a problem if she so chose to join a historically Jewish society. If that’s who she liked, then so be it, and I would want her to choose who she liked and wanted to be with – I wouldn’t tell her not to join a historically Jewish one because it might be less diverse than a “regular” one. (But then again, I don’t particularly care if she goes Greek or not – that’s her choice.)</p>

630

<p>Incidentally, WAY back at the time of the cavewomen my sorority pledged an African American girl (not our first btw: the first was a Miss Teen USA or some title like that). You want to talk reverse discrimination? She told us that if she saw us on campus and she was with her African American friends, she wouldn’t acknowledge us. She wouldn’t even say hello. She said that her friends would never understand and they would reject her. And what was worse? We accepted her reasoning/rationale of behavior.</p>

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<p>@#646
Harvard does nothing to prevent students from rooming with others of the same race. All of my D’s block-mates and link-mates are white. On the other hand, from photos I’ve seen, her sorority looks about 30% girls of color.</p>

632

<p>correction: “@626”</p>

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<p>I think at the college level, you can ensure the opportunities are there, but you can’t force friendships on people. You can ensure that there is no overt discrimination, but you can’t “force” girls to like other girls based on their race. Should the university police the cafeterias and make sure that every table includes a quota of a minority?</p>

634

<p>Well, bringing the “exclusionary” logic to it’s nth and final destination, the whole debate becomes immaterial. Clearly, sororities ought not to exist at all, as all fraternities ought to be admitting female members.</p>

<p>These are social clubs. They ‘reflect’ the culture. They don’t produce the culture. The girls from the 80s had thier experience and the girls from the 1880’s had thier experience, back when just being allowed to go to school and have a club at all was a massive big deal, and now most girls in most sororities are having a more diverse experience and the girls of the future will have an even more diverse experience, reflective of the culture they are in. Which is why it is region by region, campus by campus. </p>

<p>But, really, I say make the fraternities let the girls in and get rid of the sexism. ;)</p>

635

<p>I read more than half, but not all of these posts. </p>

<p>I’ll admit upfront to loathing sororities. My HIGH SCHOOL had sororities. I went to high school in the Midwest and most of my classmates went to state U. You needed recs to have ANY chance of getting into the “right” sorority. People worried a LOT more about getting sorority recs than college recs. I know that’s a LONG time ago, but I just wanted to clarify the fact that it wasn’t just in the South. They actually had events high school seniors could attend to meet the “sisters.” Every one of the sororities at our public flagship fell all over itself trying to attract the <em>star</em> senior girls who attended them–read most popular and best looking–because it felt that by doing so it would get the “best pledge class.” (The <em>star</em> girls pretty much controlled whether other girls from our high school got bids from the sororities they pledged.) Some of the girls in my high school class had their pledge pins by April of their senior year in high school. (I KNOW that’s changed.) </p>

<p>So, I decided that I would go to a college without sororities. For some strange reason, it did have frats–though only a minority of students joined. But your life wasn’t over if you didn’t get in. Still, my then boyfriend got rejected by his first choice frat…and yeah, it hurt. It hurts a LOT more when you go to a school like Depauw, where MOST people DO join and it’s small enough that other folks know you tried. (Anyone remember the thread started by the mother whose daughter didn’t get into any sororities there? It was heartbreaking.) </p>

<p>Residential colleges are VERY different–at least at the schools that do them well. Students are randomly assigned. While it’s possible to end up with two newspaper editors or two lacrosse majors who room together soph-senior year, you don’t end up with the jock dorm or the newspaper dorm. Because–again, depending on the particular college, and they do vary just like sororities and fraternities–it’s simply impossible for that to happen. Indeed, at those who assign students before they start college, you can’t room with your best friend if that friend lives in a different residential college. You learn to live “cordially”–to use another poster’s term–with people you did NOT choose to live with. </p>

<p>So, I think it’s perfectly plausible to have sororities filled by random draw. Princeton has eating clubs and some of them are as exclusive as any sorority or fraternity. However, they ALSO have eating clubs who choose their members by lottery. And, my understanding is that about half the eating clubs do just that. Do they perfectly reflect the student body? No. They don’t. But there are some students who could get into the most “exclusive” eating clubs who sign up for the lottery system instead. There are even students who sign up for the eating clubs that choose by lottery and end up really enjoying the experience who wouldn’t dream of joining one at all if the lottery ones weren’t an option. </p>

<p>I’m sort of bothered by some of the things some posters have said. I’m really not trying to attack them personally–and I hope they will understand that. But can you understand that SOME girls who come from families without a whole heck of a lot of money might not be comfortable with the idea of going through someone else’s closet to find something to wear when they know they (a)can’t possibly reciprocate, (b) could never cover the cost of the item should it get damaged, and (3) can’t afford to have it dry cleaned? That some 17 or 18 year old freshman really can’t splurge $10 on earrings from Target? </p>

<p>What do I think the downside of joining a sorority is? I think it’s a lot harder to change. A sorority picks you because you’re a certain kind of person. If you evolve into another kind of person, you may no longer have anything in common with your “sisters.” I tried to talk one of my guy friends in high school into turning down a bid from the #1 frat on campus. He joined. He changed from being a conservative Republican to being a very liberal Democrat. I’m old – it had to do with the War in Vietnam. When he particpated in an anti-war demonstration and was photographed doing so, most of his frat brothers stopped speaking to him. His life became impossible. He left at the end of the semester. </p>

<p>That is an extreme example; I admit that. But what if Susie who is always immaculately groomed were to decide all of a sudden that she’d rather send her money to Haiti than spend it on a mani/pedi and having her hair done? Or fell in love with a guy who was great guy, but a bit unkept? What if suddenly she looked around and said “There are other students I’d really rather share a room or an apartment with than the ones in this sorority?” (I do agree that the ones where you aren’t required to “live in” are less stultifying than those in which you are.) Or maybe she wants to quit the varsity team that she’s on–but she’s in a sorority with a lot of other girls from the team and other athletes who might not be happy with that decision? If they weren’t in the same sorority they could drift apart…or she could just avoid them for a while, but she can’t if she also lives with them–or has to eat some set number of meals or attend house events. </p>

<p>I think it’s just easier to grow and change if you don’t lock yourself into being the same person you were at 17 or 18. I personally think that joining a sorority --especially one where you live in–tends to make it harder to experiment with other personas. Or maybe when you’re a shy freshman it feels wonderful to have this little slice of campus that’s home but by the time you’re a senior, you feel that you’ve outgrown it? It can be tough to say you want “out.”</p>

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<p><a href=“Anyone%20remember%20the%20thread%20started%20by%20the%20mother%20whose%20daughter%20didn’t%20get%20into%20any%20sororities%20there?%20It%20was%20heartbreaking.”>quote</a>

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<p>Remember the thread and subsequent threads on the topic (in the end it all worked out):</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/31652-nervous-wreck-over-sorority-rush.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/31652-nervous-wreck-over-sorority-rush.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/144944-sorority-update-momwithquestions-runnersmom.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/144944-sorority-update-momwithquestions-runnersmom.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/121020-rush-sorority-not-rush.html?highlight=bid[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/121020-rush-sorority-not-rush.html?highlight=bid&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>jonri - I think you’re overstating it. If Susie decides she’d rather send her money to Haiti than spend it on a mani/pedi, well, then she does so and de-activates. The world doesn’t come to a screeching halt. Some girls do that. Great. Interests change over time. </p>

<p>As for “falling in love with a guy who was a bit unkept” … this is a bit different, my best friend in college dated the photographer’s assistant (who came and took our pictures for composites, etc.), who had a hs diploma, wasn’t going to college and wasn’t “going places” the way the college guys were. Oh well! She loved him, wound up marrying him, and that was that. If other people didn’t like it, well, that was their problem, not hers. </p>

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<p>Then she deactivates. Or in the second scenario, she quits the team – it isn’t the house’s place to tell her to be or not be on a varsity team, any more than it’s their place to tell her to study French or Spanish. Honestly, I think you’re exaggerating the “power” that sororities have over their members. Aside from requiring attendance at chapter meetings and the like, that’s about it. </p>

<p>My FB list includes a woman who was in my house and wound up deactivating because it wasn’t her thing after a while. Oh well! We can still be friends, you know. Honest. This isn’t the Mafia.</p>

638

<p>BTW, I do agree I wouldn’t want to touch a campus like DePauw’s, that is 70% Greek, with a 10 foot pole. I would feel much better about my kid looking at the Greek system if I knew upfront it was one of the more laid-back ones, where it was an adjunct to your social life, versus the key definer. And that it was a system in which quotas were based on the # of girls going through, so it wasn’t 1000 girls chasing 300 spots.</p>

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<p>Reading and participating in this thread has enlightened me with regard to what some others’ experiences are with sororities. I guess my experience was not the norm. I didn’t know what the norm was at the time and haven’t thought much about sororities since. I didn’t factor it in at all when my D was looking at schools. As she is a music major, she has her own built in group and I knew that she wouldn’t have time for a sorority. Her school is less than 20% Greek so it wasn’t an issue. </p>

<p>As a poor kid who joined the largest sorority in the country, through no planning on my part, I really can’t relate to much of the negative things that others have experienced or imagined. We borrowed or wore homemade dresses with no shame and I don’t recall wearing anything with a label in college. It was the 70s though when shopping at the Army Navy store was cool. We were all “chill” as the kids say today, and I can’t think of anyone that my sorority would have rejected out of hand - except the hypothetical toothless, unwashed girl who has been discussed on this thread.</p>

640

<p>As someone who joined a sorority with very wealthy women while I was not I can understand the concern about being the odd woman out. First of all, even the emphasis on money and status within the house depends on the university that the girl attends. (I transfered from a private univesity to a public and at that time more prestigious one.) Same sorority, different girls but my friends (yes, in both universities there was a group, albeit small who were VERY materialistic) weren’t the punitive, "OMG it must be Chanel: kind of people. I never borrowed, but I bought on sale. And, I must say, that four years running I won, at the senior banquet where silly awards were the norm, Most Fashionable. My parents’ income never wavered above the barely making it level.</p>

<p>My daughter is far more fortunate. But in her house there is the same ethic of sharing and helping. The rule, de facto, is that between friends you just shop in each other’s closets. Within the house there is a formals closet where you can “shop” alone, or with your sister. My daughter, who was given her first Vuitton (real) at twelve, has donated and shopped in the closet. No stigma, no rules. I think that is part of what sisterhood is about.</p>

<p>And as for my sisters from so long ago? I am friends today with several, most of whom were the wealthiest of the rich. To this day no one cared how much we did/nt have in the bank. My only regret? There was a “rule” that if you had trouble affording something in the house (party costs or whatever) you would go to a certain sister who, alone and without telling anyone, would mark you as paid for the event. I was, evidently, the only person who didn’t know the “rule”. And to this day I have NO idea who was helped. And in my daughter’s (different) sorority the same rule, from what I understand, still applies.</p>

<p>And the only reason I commented on the real Louis is to emphasize that the majority of the girls DON’T judge on labels, mani pedis, or hairdresser. In fact the majority of my daughter’s friends aren’t wealthy. And that is just fine.</p>