I understand the OP’s disappointment, particularly if it were based solely on a childhood dream about this particular school. However, the OP’s kid is clearly a very good student and will likely do well at MSU.
EllieMom’s point is well taken - how does the personality of the kid fit in. Would the OP’s kid fit at a competitive school like NW? If he made the decision because he thought MSU was a better fit, I wouldn’t question it. But like some others, I would be unhappy if I thought that Northwestern was a good fit for my kid, could afford it, and he turned his back on that opportunity. Perhaps not horrified, as it is his life, but certainly would have tried to convince him of why I thought NU was the better option.
Low 4 year and 6 year grad rate (recognizing that schools with a high commuter and non-traditional, non-affluent student body are going to have lower rates structurally… but apart from that, the college should be focused on getting kids in and out)
High percentage of kids in narrowly focused vocational majors with low academic standards, i.e. leisure and recreational studies; hospitality and event management.
High percentage of adjunct faculty who commute to several colleges simultaneously
Few resources devoted to actual scholarship (no archive/museum/preservation center which houses and preserves original documents or artifacts, labs which exist to teach lab skills but not to conduct real world research, etc.)
Beautiful athletic and recreational facilities; dumpy libraries which are not in heavy use by either students or faculty.
Great food, no money put into student performance/artistic endeavor/music rehearsal space.
Trying to define mediocre would just be opening another can of warms. Agreed with others that there is just too big of a difference between MST vs NU and Amherst.
Mediocre in my book is getting C’s at ANY place, including Harvard and other Ivy’s.
Only a kid can make the college experience mediocre, place itself has nothing to do with it. Thinking otherwise means not seeing the “ugly truth”. Kid is the only one who can make the college experience unforgettable and the one that “jumps” the student up into a great life, the one that family could only dream for a child. Kid can also fail all of it at absolutely ANY place. Another “ugly truth” is that many very top kids (I am talking valedictorian) perfectly undertand this concept and do not even apply to highly ranked colleges and frankly do not even check the ranks. They make sure though that the college fits them well in all aspects and will result in succes upon graduation. These kids are working very hard and take chances of all opportunities available to them and their colleges very much appreciate them on campus, not only monetarily, but presenting them with all kind of opportunities.
Miami-
There are schools with largely adjunct faculty, students with low admission stats and/or open door policies and schools with poor graduation or retention rates. I would consider many of those schools “mediocre”. What grade they got in any school is, IMO, not germane to this discussion.
@EllieMom, depends on the kid and the maturity level.
At some point, to be successful in almost any field, you have to step up and compete with the big boys. However, different people grow and are nutured to their potential in different ways. For some, it may be great faculty interaction. For some, a high-quality student body. For others, being top of the heap at some place with students who aren’t Ivy material. Though problems can occur when the kid and parents have differing ideas of what is best for him/her (and in any case, while there is a track record to go on, at the time the decision has to be made, you have to base it on speculation of which is the better path; and kids can change a lot at that age).
Regardless, I would have different price points for different schools.
OP- Your son sounds like a clear thinker and wonderful oldest child.*
I think it’s telling that one of his reasons to choose MSU is that he could graduate with 7 semesters of credits. It suggests that he wants to take full advantage of the work he’s done (the credits he can transfer). He could have more flexibility with his time, e.g. have more options for electives, extra-curriculars, or assistantships, if he were to stay for the full 4 years OR, finish early and move onto his next step. And, he has a lot of perks. (see comment #55)
Also, a campus that is friendly and supportive is a huge benefit.
Congratulations to him and you for supporting him.
*Anyone here, based on what you’ve written, would feel proud to have him as a child or sibling.
At both types of schools, there will be excellent students and profs.
Academia is pretty competitive, and when looking at undergrad, the classrooms can seem pretty similar, except for perhaps the support services. Public universities tend to nickel & dime it, whereas a private lac will include those supports with the higher tuition.
Whereas some schools will have overall stronger test scores and high school grades from entering students, IMO, that all loses relevance as soon as they enter freshman English. It’s about what they do on campus that counts.
Many students do much better in college than they did in high school, which is pretty easy to understand.
In college, they have more input regarding school selection, course selection, and at some level, every student wants to be there, which is not something you could say about a high school class.
I think of the student body at a schools that use numbers for admission, ( to insure their ranking) like this, the screening process eliminated everyone who took longer than 1 minute to run the 100 meter hurdles, or who knocked over a hurdle.
Admittees, may never run in college, they might get injured or they no longer have that coach who kept them on top of their training.
Which is fine, finding your own path is what transitioning to adulthood is all about.
Schools with more complex, more forgiving, admission standards perhaps have more confidence in their teaching, and will admit students who show promise, but perhaps have knocked down a few hurdles, or maybe even didn’t start running until spring term of senior year. ( or maybe they play the bassoon)
They don’t expect everyone to make the team, they know some will get up to speed over the summer, but some are just going to keep knocking over those hurdles, or even going under!
Some may go on to win gold.
I think that a kid has to be very self-motivated and driven to do really well in an atmosphere that is not as academically-focused. Some kids, including very bright kids, are the kind who are more inclined to go with the flow, OR the kind of person who really hesitates to put themselves forward. Although intellectually they may be at the top of the heap at a less selective school, they may well be outperformed by less academically talented go-getters.
We often say that a student can get a good education anywhere if they are willing and able to go out there and get it. Most kids probably do not have that kind of personality, even if they have the brains. They may well be the cream, in some sense, but they are not going to rise to the top in an atmosphere where you have to assert yourself to have oportunities.
To the extent that OP’s son recognized that he would not be happy at NU, I applaud him for making a decision that many adults are willing to criticize. Many, many CC posters emphasize the importance of fit. Fit doesn’t get tossed out the window simply because you are a high-stats applicant.
I personally know someone who started at Cornell, was miserable, transferred to Big State U and thrived, and now is an extremely successful physician. And the contacts this person made at B.S.U. have served this physician very well because many are business and governmental leaders in the region.
I can fully appreciate both OP’s disappointment, and the wisdom of his son in making the decision that he has. The two aren’t mutually exclusive IMO.
As far as the rest of the discussion, I had a good friend who attended Yale and I spent a lot of time there over his 4 years there (because I was not in school, I was already married and a mother), and the kids were there were so smart and sophisticated, had some fascinating experiences and yet really ignorant in a lot of ways. They only had an intellectual understanding of the way those of us at the bottom of the ladder (where I was at the time) lived. There’s all kinds of experiences to have in the life, and I don’t want my daughter to spend hers surrounded by the groupthink of like-minded people.
Interesting discussion. Prestige is something I would have had to let go of had my kid made a similar decision, but that’s MY problem.
Concerns I’d have about most any state school, maybe especially a non-flagship though they can be affected also, would be the eroding state financial support for them and what that might mean in terms of rising tuition, cutting of classes such that it becomes difficult to get into those desired/needed to graduate in 4 years, and other potential budget cut issues (lower caliber faculty, greater use of TAs, etc).
I don’t think I’d have those concerns about an Amherst or Northwestern, wealthy as they are.
@Consolation, I agree that the brilliant slacker type will do better at private elites (the irony is that that type would be rejected by most private elites these days). Also that if you want to be successful at a big state school, you need to be self-motivated. The tough part is ascertaining in what environments a kid will be or stay motivated.
@PurpleTitan, I was not necessarily talking about slackers. There is a lot of ground between being an adept, eager self-promoter and being a slacker, especially at the age of 17-22. There’s the self-motivated person who goes off and delves into what interests him or her, and the self-motivated person who is adept at making themselves known to the right people, etc.
I agree that some of the private elites heavily favor the latter, though. And I completely agree with your last sentence.
This is no better than for people to say or think, “All of those kids at lower ranked schools are so stupid and unsophisticated, had most boring experiences…They only had rudimentary understanding of the way those of us at the upper echelon of the ladder lived…”
Not all students at those top tier schools are unaware of real life. People who go to those top tier schools are also not doomed for unhappy marriage, spoiled kids, or become alcoholics. It amazes me how people love to post, “I know people who went to state school and became CEO/billionaires. I know people who went to HYPS who are taking hand outs or are so happy at their job/life.”
“It amazes me how people love to post, 'I know people who went to state school and became . . . '”
As someone who just posted such a sentiment (#150), I would just say that I tend to offer such observations in support of my view that a high ranking private does not always trump a solid state university when it comes to choice of schools. We as adults don’t give kids enough credit when we ask them to set aside their gut instinct, in order to accept our desire for prestige.
And I’m fully aware that not all students at the top tier schools are unaware of real life. But I do have to wonder if George H W Bush (in the 1992 checkout line) and Mitt Romney (“47 percent”) might have each eked out a win if they had chosen to go to Michigan State instead of Yale and Harvard.
Ok I have to weigh on on this one. My DC had numerous top choices. The results were multiple top Ivies and Stanford. For many, many reasons my husband and I thought one of the Ivies fit DC very well and would rocket DC to the dreams that she has. That Ivy felt the same way and said she was one of their top admits and offered a very competitive financial aid offer to tear her away from the other schools. (And just to avoid distraction and arguments that it is all about prestige, I want to say that while DC did get into Harvard, that was not our top pick.) DC loved the program of that Ivy, but was less enthusiastic about the overall environment for the school. In the end DC chose Stanford not because of prestige and not because of any specific school feature. DC chose it because she was happiest there when DC visited and believes that Stanford has an eye on the future.
Does that make me uncomfortable? Heck yes! It will go down as one of the hardest moments in my life where I had to sit on my hands and let DC make the decision, even when I knew DC’s decision would not be my pick. But I could not say with any certainty that DC’s decision was a big mistake (although I am sure that most of our friends think saying no to Harvard and its 2% admission rate RD and completely unquestioned worldwide brand was crazy.) In the end I recognized that my goal and DC’s choice were the same: I raised my kids with the single goal of making sure they joined in the pursuit of happiness. And, DC’s decision (whether ultimately right or wrong) was made with priority placed on that principle. And I am just going to have to get comfortable with the fact that DC and I disagree.
I do believe there is a difference in opportunity and in the qualities of the student body at the colleges. While I think that the gap is not as wide as we may think, I do not think that the gap doesn’t exist. All will have academic geniuses and all will have artists, some more than others, and some will provision the artists more than the academic geniuses and vice versa, but in most cases for schools in the same broad bandwidth it will be a draw.
I also agree with posters stating that this is the first step in the process of letting go, but I also see the college decision as being the last building block in which parents have and should have significant influence. So it is a muddy transitional footbridge on which parent and child must support each other to get to the other side.
My son was honored at a breakfast at the Toledo Club last Friday. 13 years ago, I stopped there twice a week to pick up the garbage. My thought has always been that he would meet people at a place like Amherst or Northwestern that he likely would not at Michigan State: people that might have the connections to help him get somewhere or become something that he otherwise might not. In thinking more about this, however, I suspect that he will be able to get to where he wants just as easily from MSU - and that place and my dreams for him might not be the same. This is, perhaps, analogous to an athlete’s parents realizing their son isn’t quite good enough to be a professional - something the son probably has known for some time.
