Disclaimer: May cause headache

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Disclaimer should apply to just me though. I am just so confused to the point where I wake up with agonizing headaches over this. It's probably called OVERREACTION or simply a female indecisive disorder otherwise known as simply being a young woman/adult... but here is my problem:</p>

<p>I've been working hard with transferring out of my cc to a 4 year school and finally got into UC Berkeley as an English Lit major. I suddenly took up interest in law and am now prepairing for LSATs and other lovely work that has to do with enterance to "top" law schools.</p>

<p>I had a choice between going to UCLA and Berkeley and picked Berkeley even before I thought I'd get into law, I picked it for the liberal arts program Berkeley had to offer over the one at UCLA. As time grew by.. all of the sudden, I started hearing things like "It doesn't matter what school you go to.. as long as you get a BS/BA .. unless you plan to enroll in a good grad school/ law school"</p>

<p>and I thought to myself - of course, I will attend one of the two (grad/law school) so I have to aim high, right? But then as I am nearing the application process to these schools, I now hear "it doesn't matter what law school you go to unless you want to work at a big firm".</p>

<p>Here is my DILEMMA. I don't want to go to a top law school just to get into a big law firm and graduate with gazillion dollars in loans.. I am kind of frusterated because all this time I thought getting into the top law school meant A LOT more possibilities for the future, not just... graduate and get into a big law firm.</p>

<p>Maybe some of you can advise me as to the way I should undertake. I mentioned already that I'm a female.. which means I will be a mother someday and I may be unmarried just because my parents are .. a bad example of marriage I grew up with a tainted view and really.. not important, the point is: there IS a chance I may be unwed mother which means I will be supporting myself and a toddler on my own.</p>

<p>Now, I'm one of those modern/traditional moms that would like to work (even when wed) but still have time to the kids which is why PART TIME lawyer is very important to me. From what I understand, having your own firm takes A LOT of time to run so that may as well be out of the question?</p>

<p>Does that mean working for big firms is my biggest option? If so, in order to get into the top one would it be better for me to aim for the pricey prestigious law schools?</p>

<p>I'm just... so confused -_-</p>

<p>I really, really don't want to pay 100's of thousands of dollars plus the interest $$$ which is just sickening. Why can't I just study and then enjoy life? Why is life so complicated?!?!??! </p>

<p>T_T</p>

<p>I don't know what to do... Help ^_^</p>

2

<p>You really can just study, and then enjoy life.</p>

<p>Nothing says you must choose the path your parents chose. My father was a white, small-town Baptist minister in Upstate New York; I graduated from Boalt, and then divided my time between playing fiddle in Country Western bands, and practicing law in Chinatown. A quarter century after law school, I'm a licensing attorney in Silicon Valley, and a father-of-two who married one of his African-American classmates at Boalt.</p>

<p>Life seems a lot more complicated if you make assumptions about your future that may prove to be unwarranted. Don't let other people make your choices for you; once you have a good education, few of your decisions will really feel like they're irrevocable.</p>

3

<p>Getting into a top law school has a number of advantages. First, as you mentioned, it allows easier access into the biglaw jobs when you graduate (and during the summers through your law school career). Second, prestigious clerkships are easier to be had if you attend a top school. Third, a good school is almost required if you want to venture back into academia as a law school professor. </p>

<p>If you don't have any desire to be a professor or work a biglaw gig, it might make a lot of sense to attend a UC with in-state tuition to avoid debt. Even better, you could go to a place like U-San Diego with a scholarship and really be free to chose whatever kind of work you want. Be forewarned: going to a lower-ranked school shuts a lot of doors-- to many biglaw jobs, to academia, etc-- and often forces you to practice law in the region of the school. If you aren't sure what you want to do with the law or where you want to practice, the top-notch law school will provide you the opportunity to keep all your options open.</p>

4

<p>Thanks for the input, it definitely helps :)</p>

5

<p>Don't take my word for all of this, because I haven't been through this all myself...just my disclaimer ;)</p>

<p>Based on what I've read about BIGLAW, it's probably not the biggest/best option for you if things like part-time and flexibility are of particular importance. It's reputation is for being demanding, relentless, and completely unpredictable, so it might actually be one of your worst options. That said, I understand that big firms are very common starting places, as they have the resources to train young lawyers, while smaller firms prefer to hire those with more experience (in many cases, those who've chosen to leave BIGLAW). </p>

<p>To respond to other parts of your post...</p>

<ul>
<li><p>It's generally agreed upon that your undergrad school is unimportant (at least relatively) when it comes to applying to law school. Far more important are your GPA and LSAT score. That said, Berkeley is a well-respected school, so it doesn't much matter for you whether law schools do or don't care about your undergrad institution. You're set either way.</p></li>
<li><p>In general, certain schools and certain degrees will help you open doors, no matter where you want to go. They won't magically get jobs for you, but they'll grease the path, so to speak. If you're unsure about your path, then it's probably true that the more well and widely-respected your law school, the more options it'll allow you (one consideration might be where you want to live/practice. Regionally known/respected law schools will attract mostly regional recruiters, while schools with bigger names will make it easier for you to find employment farther away from campus). If you know what you want to do with your law degree and you know that a lower-ranked school can get you there, then by all means, save your money! But the trade-off between cost and flexibility--if there ends up being one--will ultimately be up to you. If you qualify for in-state tuition in California, then you're already in an advantageous position (Cal and UCLA both have excellent law schools...top 10 and top 20, respectively).</p></li>
</ul>

<p>It sounds like things are going very well for you--successful transfer to a great school, big goals for your future--so keep doing what you're doing and trust that things will work out. You don't have to have everything completely mapped out just yet. Stay decently on top of things, but don't drive yourself crazy!</p>

6

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=383188%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=383188&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

7

<p>you're right, depending where you work and in what practice area biglaw is going to require 50-70 weeks, and probably an 80 hour week tossed in every couple of months (especially for nyc). If you don't wanna do that then no problem, however graduating from a good school and going biglaw has more advantages than a big pay check. After two years you can leave your firm and go to an inhouse council and also make a nice salary (100k+). However if you go to USD it's going to be almost impossible to get an inhouse job (40 hrs a week) for 100k unless you get biglaw, which, out of usd, is almost impossible.</p>

8

<p>Lax, getting an in house job is not that predictable. It is not that easy to go in house after two years with a large firm, unless you join a company with an in house staff the size of a large firm. The range is usually more like 4-6 yrs. With many companies, the experience trumps law schools. There are certainly those where that is not the case. I have a client in Northern Virginia that will only accept resumes from top 15 schools and wants to know the candidate's LSAT score. I think that's nuts and find myself apologizing for having to ask these candidates, many of whom have been out of law school for 10 years. That client is definitely in the minority. The more normal client I have for in house jobs is one now who wants a Deputy General Counsel 7-15 yrs out. The experience is niche so law school is not as important as experience.</p>

9

<p>i think the prime target for inhouse jobs is around 2-4 years. abovethelaw.com did an article about this a while back that said after 4 years your markitability decreases to inhouse positions. Either way, a spot at a vault 100 firm should get you an inhouse position at a fortune 250 company without much of a problem.</p>

10

<p>Aren't you all overlooking something . . .?</p>

<p>She went to Community College!</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I have no idea why you are trying to or even THINKING about getting into a top tiered law school.</p>

<p>They will see "Littleroguetown College" and reject you on that basis alone.</p>

<p>Just my $.03.</p>

11

<p>Going to a community college does not mean you get rejected outright. There are a variety of reasons for going to a CC, not just because someone couldn't get into a good school. Moreover, the fact that the OP transferred to Berkeley means something. Her GPA at Berkeley will likely be scrutinized by admissions counselors just for the reason you posted and if she/he does well, then the fact that she/he went to a CC means nothing in comparison to her/his success at Berkeley.</p>

12

<p>I believe that CC is an unusually common path for good students in California (CCs and the UCs are quite cooperative). So if the OP plans to stay in-state for law school, I imagine that CC will be even less of an issue, if any at all.</p>

<p>(Totally guesswork. I don't know that it would be an issue anywhere, nor do I know that it won't be in CA. But this is my train of logic.)</p>

13

<p>furgesson is stupid....I love it how people like him/her try to give advice, yet don't know ANYTHING in regards to what they are giving advice about. Here's some help, keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you're talking about....no information is better then bad information. LSAC calculates ALL GRADES the same, from your A at CC to your A at harvard...furthermore, if you transfer to a 4 yr, the fact that you went to CC doesn't factor into admissions one bit. Not 1%, not .1%, not .01%....NOTHING.</p>

14

<p>*Best way to put it is like buying insurance. *</p>

<p>Poor Health/Grades
Insurance: Pay a lot. You always get covered.
*Getting a Job: * Pay a lot/go to a top school and you get a good education. You always get a job.</p>

<p>Good Health/Grades
Insurance: Pay a little. You always get covered. (Remembering you are in a good health.)
*Getting a Job: * Pay a little. You always get a job. (Remembering you have good grades.)</p>

<p>In other words pick your poison. Go to a top notch school you can afford to have poor grades. If you have top notch grades you can afford to go to a poor school.</p>

<p>Noting the fact I'm looking overall. Also remember the fact that if you are at not so good school get good grades to stay in the top of your class. If you are at a top notch school then you don't have to be in the top of your class. Hope it helps.</p>

15

<p>Btw I don't know how accurate those average salary. Check the reporting percentage. I'm basing some of my choices on that. If I can make around $125,000 (most top schools are that in the private sector) on average from that school why go to a even more expensive or harder to get into school? But again my previous post does still apply.</p>

<p>For example Like Fordham is around $125,000 in private, that looks good for me. Lower tuition (15k) then most schools. Easy for me to get into to. And employment rate is 98.6% after 9 months. Plus since it ranks around 25th which isn't bad. And there is always the chance I can get some financial aid or scholarship.</p>

<p>Just find a school like that fits you. The way I started doing was this.</p>

<p>Again this is how I did it. So you might want to do it differently.</p>

<p>1) Private Salary: 125k Recommend, 100k Minimum
2) GPA/LSAT: 3.6 GPA and 165 LSAT. (Aimed a bit lower then normal in case I get lazy or something happens but then there is always extra curricular).
3) Employment Rate 9 Months after Graduation: 98% Recommended, 95% Minimum
4) Employment Rate at Graduation: 90% Recommended, 85% Minimum
5) Setting: MUST BE URBAN! If not I won't go. I get sick in anything but urban. Suburban or rural definitely not for school.
6) Location: Preferably Middle Atlantic but willing to go to Max North: Mass, Max West: Texas, Max South: Tennessee/NC</p>

<p>Also helped to note a high employment rate and high salary = high probability of $$$$$$$$!</p>

<p>I looked at the results and I was very happy. Even if I lowered my GPA and LSAT by a few numbers or increased it by a few I was within the ball park. Remembering also humans are judging this and quite a number of people that apply to certain law schools are just plain not even worth looking. So extra curricular does influence and you can always justify GPA and the sort. Again set some goals and guidelines and be realistic and you might even be surprised at some of the outcomes.</p>

<p>AGAIN THIS IS HOW I DID IT. These are just suggestions. Don't run your life on what I say. ;) Also Rogue I completely understand what you are going through. I'm the same way (minus the woman part but at times I worry so much about the future I get told that I am :P ). Especially the thing about the kids. Find a law firm but that comes after graduation. You can look for a law firm that is willing to work out the hours. Instead of 60-80 hours a week asks for around 40 but you will get a pay cut most likely. But still if might not be bad. I was considering doing that until I got into politics. Or just marry a lawyer and go into the same law firm and wait a few years to have kids.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Btw I don't know how accurate those average salary. Check the reporting percentage. I'm basing some of my choices on that. If I can make around $125,000 (most top schools are that in the private sector) on average from that school why go to a even more expensive or harder to get into school? But again my previous post does still apply.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Salary can usually be split into two sectors....biglaw and non biglaw. Biglaw market is 160k for first years, non biglaw market is usually always below 100k but varies by firm/type of work....therefore most people break down schools by ones chance at getting biglaw. Take Yale for example, you can finish bottom 5% and still get biglaw (160k). If you come from Pepperdine or Loyola you're going to have to finish top 5% to get that. </p>

<p>
[quote]
For example Like Fordham is around $125,000 in private, that looks good for me. Lower tuition (15k) then most schools. Easy for me to get into to. And employment rate is 98.6% after 9 months. Plus since it ranks around 25th which isn't bad. And there is always the chance I can get some financial aid or scholarship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you high? Tuition @ fordham is 39k and will run you about 60k/yr after everything is figured in. <a href="http://law.fordham.edu/ihtml/fa-2Loan_COA.ihtml?id=320%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://law.fordham.edu/ihtml/fa-2Loan_COA.ihtml?id=320&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also, dont put alot of weight into % employed after graduation. First, these #'s are self reported (if you're not employed you have more problems to worry about then returning a survey your school sends you) + employment doesn't mean legal employment....hell if school A graduated 100% of it's class, but 100% worked at mcdonalds after graduation, they would have 100% employment. </p>

<p>You should pick a law school based on two decisions. First, do you want to go into biglaw or not? If you don't want to do it then go where you want and can get the most $$ (therefore lowering tuition) but just remember that you will most likely make 50-70k upon graduation. If you want to go to biglaw go to the highest ranked school. Now, obviously there's no different between 7 and 8, or 10 and 12...but if it comes down to Georgetown at 14 and fordham at 25....go to georgetown if you want the big firm job. The "rule of thumb" at fordham is top 1/3 get biglaw, everyone out side of that has to hustle for it. Gtown, on the other hand, can get top 60% or so into biglaw with the rest having to hustle for it (mind you, it's easier to hustle for it when you have georgetown compared to fordham on your resume). </p>

<p>To sum up:</p>

<p>1) higher ranked schools get you the better shot at the big firm jobs (and big $)</p>

<p>2) if you want to work at a big firm you should go to the higher ranked school (assuming the difference is more then 1/2 spots)</p>

<p>3) if you want to work in a big firm and you're choosing between a few less then stellar schools, go with wherever you can get the $$, because outside of say the top 25 biglaw is VERY hard to get.</p>

17

<p>Yeah you are right. BIG MISTAKE. Fordham is not 15k. It was looking at something else when I was typing it. But its still a little bit under.</p>

18

<p>And on the rest I definitely agree. I was just giving it as an example. But what you said is true and relates back to my insurance example. But of course the better the Uni, well the better your chances. And yeah like you said Gtown or Fordham. Definitely Gtown (unless you get a free ride or something to fordham then you might want to rethink).</p>

<p>Like one of my friends went to Boston U and he got a 20K scholarship plus during his soph year he got afford a job in the top NJ law firm (second biggest by size) for 140k. And he is just a little below top 1/3 of his class.</p>

19

<p>I also found this: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/results.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/results.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/new_study_of_na.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/new_study_of_na.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003job_national.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003job_national.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Shows alumnis getting into top law firms.</p>

20

<p>and this. Its the Vault top firm placement. First numbers are percentage of class and second is number of students. Note some go by national and some by area like NY or DC or w/e.</p>