<p>Let's say that you ignored all the advice not to go to law school and did it anyway. Now lets say that you are facing a choice of Biglaw firms to work for. What criteria would you use to make your choice? Where would you go to find the secret info that people don't tell you about the firms before you join?</p>
<p>I don't really have any insight in this area but have been asked for help in making the decision. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :-)</p>
<p>I believe that zoosermom is involved with BigLaw recruiting, so I hope she’ll post here. </p>
<p>parentofpeople, I presume this student has taken part in on-campus interviewing as a 2L, and is choosing between offers for a summer associate position? OCI is a rigorously well-defined process. The career services office will have extensive information available about individual firms. 3Ls at this student’s school should also have helpful insights.</p>
<p>My daughter had a fortunate OCI last year and received a number of offers. She was assessing firms while they were assessing her, during on-campus interviews, at receptions and dinners hosted by the firms in her college town, and then during the final interviews at the firms themselves. She networked with 3Ls and law school alums to ask what their general impressions of certain firms were, and also how they measured up on aspects that were most important to her. These included family-friendly policies, pro bono practices, and the ease with which associates might enter government legal work; obviously other students will have their own criteria.</p>
<p>She chose her three top offers and requested a second interview at each, which all were happy to provide. By that time she thought she’d be equally happy at any of them, but finally chose for the right fit. They liked her as a summer associate, and she has an offer for after graduation. (Relief.)</p>
<p>frazzled1, you are correct. She is using all of the school career services and 3L resources as far as determining fit and areas of practice etc. </p>
<p>I guess the big question is have these biglaw firms made their adjustments for the current economy already? Is the firm financially stable, with a strong client base? You hear horror stories of large number’s of SA’s being no offered and have to wonder if it because there is less work than expected. I guess that is the real question that is hard to get an honest answer to. It is easy for them to tell her it was something the SA did etc as opposed to we just couldn’t absorb that many new associates.</p>
<p>Billlable hours plus how many hours people actually bill. My firm was 2000 hours then every hour after was bonus-able and many many bonused…There are always going to be firms that have a rep as sweatshops as places people go for two years to get them on their resumes and then leave for greener pastures. Look at the list of clients. One of our major clients was a major tobacco company and believe you me when I say there was mucho mutual love between them and the firm so no negative nancy’s allowed on that end. Also, there are going to be firms that represent one political party or another and therefore political leanings one way or another. So, look at the billables, bios of people who work there, at their client list and their charitable work.</p>
<p>TempeMom, how can she see their billable hours? Is that something to ask on a second look visit?</p>
<p>As a student deciding between offers (should you be so fortunate), you care about:</p>
<ol>
<li>Offer rates. The best firm in the world isn’t worth summering at if they only hire a third of the class.</li>
<li>Practice areas. You can bill 3000 hours a year for a little while and most people jump out of biglaw soon anyways. You want to make sure you’re doing what you want so you can exit where you want.</li>
<li>Billable hours. The above notwithstanding, billing 3k sucks and if you can do 2k all the better.</li>
<li>Geography. A firm’s location is where you’re living and may affect your ability to move to other markets.</li>
</ol>
<p>Things you probably should not care about:</p>
<ol>
<li>Pro bono. A firm is a business. Even at the most charitable of firms they only boast around 50 hours of pro bono per attorney. That’s a week of your life. Spend more time considering the other 49 per year.</li>
<li>Flex time/part time. You probably won’t stay long enough to take advantage of these. If you do stay, you probably won’t make partner (no hours means no business) so you’ll have to leave anyways.</li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t discount what you’re saying, Demosthenes, but it’s my understanding that not every BigLaw associate leaves against his/her will. Some appreciate the opportunity to repay loans that BigLaw affords, and are well aware of the odds against making partner. They account for those factors in thinking about career paths, and expect that their time as an associate will be temporary.</p>
<p>Being a partner isn’t all that great anymore. </p>
<p>You can ask what their expected billables are, you can ask people who interview you what they/associates typically do, ideally you phrase it in such a way that it looks like you are looking to bonus and want to know if that is possible. She might also ask the very relevant question do you get to count billables they write off.</p>
<p>S is in the same boat as parentofpeople’s daughter. He is looking into offer rates first, the strength and width of his preferred practice area, and then there is fit(sigh). At this point the firm with the strongest and most varied litigation practice(on his list, in his preferred market) is the one he likes the least in terms of fit. They also were the only ones who “discourage” the after-offer visits. He is going to talk to as many people as he can before making the decision.</p>
<p>I would look at the retention rate, at the partnership turnover, and at the midlevel associate survey ressults. I would also say that fit is the most important thing if you have two offers in hand because it’s the mentoring and support given to junior associates that helps them to become midlevel or senior associates. I would also suggest that the person scour Abovethelaw.com and see what things have gone on at that firm and what it’s reputation is. When you join a law firm it is a huge commitment of time and if you aren’t comfortable with the people you will never succeed. Also look at the websites of the firms and see where the lawyers went to school. If you find extreme clubbishness at the undergrad or law school leven and you aren’t in the club, you may want to reconsider. You should definitely ask how not meeting hours is handled, although, the real story is usually available on Abovethelaw.com.</p>
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<p>You’re absolutely right, a lot leave because they are sick of BigLaw and are offered opportunity elsewhere. You’ll notice I spoke about “when” people left, not about “why.” Functionally it makes no difference whether you leave because you can’t stand it or because the firm’s “up or out” policy outted you. The point is that, regardless of why, your time is likely to be no more than 7 years or so. Given the temporary nature of BigLaw, it’s best to go in planning to get out.</p>
<p>Demosthenes is giving the absolute best piece of advice. Always plan for the 7-8 year career path and to then be earning less (and possibly much less) for the rest of your career. The smart associates I have known have prioritized paying off debt and getting a reasonable home within the first few years so they will be set for life. Unfortunately, there are also many who spend like drunken sailors until they get the tap on the shoulder and find that the best job they can get earns half or a third of their BigLaw salary.</p>
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<p>My advice is to go with fit over what appears to be a better practice area so early in the career. He will hate any practice area if he’s not with people he likes and respects. I agree completely with Zoosermom’s posts. Mentoring is a key factor. There is an inherent amount of flailing about at the beginning of every law career because law school doesn’t teach you what you need to know. Strong mentoring and leadership by senior associates and partners is crucial for the success of young associates. Go in with the seemingly disparate goals of being a long term success and preparing to leave within a few years. You want to be able to leave on your own terms if possible so you need to work very hard and make yourself as valuable to the firm as possible. An associate is most marketable to another law firm in the 3-5 yr. range. Live as frugally as you can in those first years. Handcuffs are handcuffs even if they’re golden. Staying around for 7-8 yrs. knowing that you don’t have a reasonable shot at making partner can be a big mistake.</p>
<p>The thing about practice areas is that the specifics can change. For example, my firm pitched a piece of business that is in the tens of millions of dollars and will last for years. Our associates, who had no idea that this business was coming, are now working on it in very large numbers. If this isn’t what they wanted, they are SOL because it is the future of the litigation department at least in the short term. And I am sure every associate will appreciate it at bonus time. At the junior level flexibility and adaptability are key. You need to be a team player and never perceived as a prince or princess.</p>
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<p>zoosermom that is the exact advice we have given. Get those loans paid off as soon as possible so that you can make decisions about your life based on preferences, not debt.</p>
<p>She has looked at above the law, but it is interesting to note the difference in the actual articles, vs. the comments below. It makes you wonder how truthful people were when answering the surveys. </p>
<p>It adds to the confusion, when the firm who had the highest satisfaction rating also had a very high no offer rate. Two things to consider and two results that send you in opposite directions when deciding. </p>
<p>Thanks for the tips, I guess she knows all of this and how to go about getting the info, I just didn’t know what questions to ask her about when she is bouncing her thoughts off of me.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t read the comments, but the surveys are remarkably accurate. The thing about NYC law firms is that they are staggeringly incestuous. There is never more than two degrees of separation between the highest partner and the lowest staf member in any firm, and nothing is secret, so it would be impossible to fudge a reputation.</p>
<p>The no offer rate is much more a reflection of the individuals than the firms, with the exception of firms already in a death spiral. I can think of no such firms at this point. If your d has an offer, then she shouldn’t worry about the no offer rate. Summer programs have scaled back markedly, so there isn’t much fat to trim anymore.</p>
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<p>I can’t decide if this is funny or scarey 
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<p>zoosermom,</p>
<p>at this point S has only a vaguest idea about what type of lit he is into, he only knows that lit is what he wants. He would love to try as many different things as they would allow him. He also understands perfectly that as the lowest person on a totem pole you will do all kinds of tedious things. So better to do those where you fit the best.</p>
<p>Parabella that is exactly right</p>