<p>Tsdad,</p>
<p>I'm going to respectfully disagree with you there. There isn't one "umbrella" Jewish ethnicity, but there are distinct Jewish ethnicities. Ashkenazi Jews are almost certainly a distinct ethnic group, not only genetically but culturally and linguistically.</p>
<p>Jews, however, are not some monolithic people lacking diversity, that's for sure.</p>
<p>Tsdad:
I guess I was unclear. what I was saying was that Judaism is a religion, and Hebrew is an ethnicity. But most people who are Jewish are Hebrew, and vice versa.</p>
<p>UCLAri:
True, but for the purposes of discriminatory practices, those groups can be lumped together. Kind of like identifying discrimination against Asians, even though clearly that includes a lot of distinct groups.</p>
<p>
[quote]
True, but for the purposes of discriminatory practices, those groups can be lumped together. Kind of like identifying discrimination against Asians, even though clearly that includes a lot of distinct groups.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sure, but that doesn't make it anthropologically true. I also think that the "Asian" label is somewhat silly, considering the difference between Hmong and Japanese in terms of typical resources and background...</p>
<p>I think when we are discussing biases against Jews and Asians, those who have such biases are not particularly picky as what ethnic group someone who is Jewish belongs, nor are they interested in what type of Asian. Often Indians and Chinese are clumped in a group along with the rest of the Asians. I know in speaking with people, they interchange Chinese and Japanes a lot and many have no idea what Hmong are. </p>
<p>I doubt there are Jew detectors in admissions officers any more than there are Asian detectors. The fact of the matter is that many Jewish students have similar profiles as the Asian kids, and when they fall into that overrepresented profile, not as many of them are going to be accepted, as the university wants diversity of types. It's not just Jewish and Asian kids that fall under that profile either. And there are many Asian and Jewish kids who fall into the BWRK category, which is not much help either, as that group, too is over represented.</p>
<p>I guess I was unclear. what I was saying was that Judaism is a religion, and Hebrew is an ethnicity. But most people who are Jewish are Hebrew, and vice versa.</p>
<p>Judaism is only a religion, and Hebrew is only a language. When someone is a "Jew" that can either be religiously or ethnically (as in my case). In effect I am a Jew who does not practice Judaism.</p>
<p>Repeat after me--Judiasm is not an ethnicity. It is not an ethnicity. People of all colors, races, and geographical backgrounds are Jews. Nothing good can come of the belief that Jewishness=Ethnicity.</p>
<p>I think that many of you are confusing cultural practices, which many Jews, regardless of how observant they are, share and ethnicty.</p>
<p>tsdad is correct. Judiasm is a religion. Where some confusion comes in is that some people who are of the Jewish faith do not want to identify themselves as being, for example, from Polish or German ancestry because of the confinement, persecution, and extermination of Jews in concentration camps. The fact is that they still have a German or Polish ethnicity/ancestry.</p>
<p>Well Tsdad. My Dad was Jewish. I did not grow up in that faith, but it's the cultural heritage of an entire half of my ancestors.</p>
<p>So, I consider myself half Jewish. And i"m not going to change my mind about that.</p>
<p>i have to say -- i find it somewhat disturbing that someone who claims to be an admissions officer, but has not been verified by this board to be one (at least as of yet) has been able to start this type of controversy anonymously without offering anything other than general unsupported assertions that people are supposed to believe because this person has self identified as an admissions officer.</p>
<p>This post got me thinking...has anyone ever looked at race statistics in census numbers and compared them to college enrollments? I know the black/hispanic numbers in the census can be misleading since they are co-mingled (a person can check off more than one box), but I'm sure that could be accounted for in some way. </p>
<p>Anyone know of a study out there?</p>
<p>Caused me to do some reading:</p>
<p>"The DNA studies have revealed a high degree of genetic interrelatedness among Ashkenazi groups, particularly among those of Eastern Europe. This common ancestry can be attributed to a small founding population, coupled with rapid population growth and a high rate of endogamy over the past 500 years. The studies also indicate a sharing of genetic ancestry between eastern and western Ashkenazim, supporting the view that some portion of Eastern European Jewry was founded by western Ashkenazim.</p>
<p>DNA research has also revealed significant genetic links between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish populations, despite their separation for generations. With the Cohanim study, researchers found a clear genetic connection between the Jewish priests and a shared Israelite ancestor from the past. Additional genetic results suggest that the Ashkenazim can trace at least part of their ancestry to their Israelite forbearers. </p>
<p>But Jewish DNA presents a picture that is far more complex than just the Cohanim results. This picture is also far more diverse than what many genetic studies on Ashkenazi Jews would suggest. Instead, many of those studies have focused heavily on the Israelite DNA results, often downplaying the significant contribution of European and Khazarian ancestors. The examination of only a single component of Jewish ancestry has resulted in an incomplete and, to a certain extent, distorted presentation of the Jewish genetic picture. </p>
<p>Diversity was present from Jewish beginnings, when various Semitic and Mediterranean peoples came together to form the Israelites of long ago. The genetic picture was clearly enriched during the Diaspora, when Jews spread far and wide across Europe, attracting converts and intermarrying over time with their European hosts. The most recent DNA evidence indicates that from this blending of Middle Eastern and European ancestors, the diverse DNA ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews emerged. </p>
<p>Although the debate over the fate of the Khazars is far from over, DNA research suggests that remnants of these mysterious people continue to exist within the genetic makeup of Ashkenazi Jews. In fact, the Levite results indicate that the Khazars became fully integrated into the Ashkenazi communities and came to play an important role within the Jewish priesthood. </p>
<p>The Cohanim results do not disprove the genetic contribution of the Khazars. Rather, the DNA studies indicate that Jews are not entirely Khazarian, Israelite or European in genetic makeup, but a complex and unique mixture of all these peoples. "</p>
<p><a href="http://jogg.info/11/coffman.htm%5B/url%5D">http://jogg.info/11/coffman.htm</a></p>
<p>monydad, It is very interesting reading. For the purpose of this thread is your point, which is taken from the article by Ellen Levy-Coffman:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The word “Jew” has a mosaic of meanings: it defines a follower of the Jewish faith, a person who has at least one Jewish parent, or a member of a particular ethnic group (“Jewish”). There are many Jews who do not practice Judaism as a religion but define themselves as “Jewish” by virtue of their family’s heritage and identification with the culture and history of the Jewish people.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Weighing in on the "Jewish Question": </p>
<p>Judaism is certainly a religion as we understand it, but in one respect it is utterly different from every other major religion, and that difference bears on the difficulties people have with the meaning of the word "Jew". It is fundamental to the Jewish religion that there is an identifiable Jewish People (Am Yisroel), and that God entered into a covenant with the Jewish People under which they were bound to follow certain divine instructions specific to them. The Jewish religion does not invite non-Jews to adhere to it; proselytism among non-Jews is illogical and essentially forbidden. So from within religious Judaism it would be incoherent to say there is only a Jewish religion, not a Jewish people. The two are inextricably mixed.</p>
<p>And certainly up until the last couple of generations, that was how Jews were seen from outside a religious perspective, too. They were a particular people, like Swabians or Scots, with their own language(s), customs, and laws, except that, like Gypsies, they didn't have a particular homeland area. Like everyone else, they could be converted to Christianity or Islam as a matter of religious practice; like everyone else, once converted they retained their original ethnic status (and might be suspected of backsliding). Like everyone else, they aspired to nationhood and self-determination -- thus Zionism. Zionism was absolutely, in its origins, a secular movement. Few of the early Zionists were religiously observant, and to this day most Israeli Jews aren't. Widespread support for Zionism among fundamentalist Jews is a relatively recent phenomenon.</p>
<p>That said, if the racial and ethnic characteristics of the Jewish People were ever uniform, that time passed several millenia ago. There are certainly some general consistent groupings out there, of course.</p>
<p>(Also -- "Hebrew" is not a good term to use. It refers to the tribe identified with Abraham etc., and which was enslaved in Egypt, and which of course formed the core of the Jewish People. Also, that tribe's language, in which God's instructions were transcribed. But as far as I know Jews -- religious or not -- never refer to themselves or other Jews as "Hebrews," nor was the Jewish People ever limited to Hebrews, since people from other tribes intermarried with Hebrews back to the earlist generations.)</p>
<p>As for colleges:</p>
<p>Jews, however you define 'em, have had a great run the past 50 years, and continue to do well. They sure don't count much towards "diversity" anymore, though. To the extent elite schools are serious about including the formerly unincluded, but without building a lot of new dorms, those slots have to come from somewhere, and the "somewhere" will be last generation's winners. I strongly, strongly doubt there's anything like overt or even covert anti-Semitism being practiced by admissions committees. But I don't doubt at all that they sometimes feel it would be OK to admit only six or seven potential Philip Roths or Albert Einsteins this year, rather than nine or ten, if that opens up some spaces for future Barack Obamas or Salman Rushdies. That's just life.</p>
<p>Pays to be a Jewish Smith, or other innocuous last name, and not have lots of synagogue activities. Then they never know! :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Repeat after me--Judiasm is not an ethnicity. It is not an ethnicity. People of all colors, races, and geographical backgrounds are Jews. Nothing good can come of the belief that Jewishness=Ethnicity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, some good can come of it. Prevention and treatment of diseases, for example. People of certain Jewish backgrounds are far more prone to Tay-Sachs than most other groups, and it's VERY important that doctors be aware of this.</p>
<p>I'm thinking maybe you and I have different definitions of "ethnicity." Ethnicity isn't a hard and fast grouping like race is. It includes cultural, linguistic, ritual, religious, and genealogical traits. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, all share similar cultural, linguistic, ritual, religious, and genealogical backgrounds. And despite your call that "anyone" can be a Jew, the fact is that very few people convert compared to other religions, meaning that despite the diaspora, the genetic stock remained relatively (key word) static compared to other groups.</p>
<p>Yes, there is a Jewish ethnic identity. There are also many Jewish ethnic identities. One can say that they have both an Ashkenazic ethnic identity as well as a general Jewish ethnic identity and not be wrong based on what ethnicity means. </p>
<p>And it's a perfectly acceptable thing.</p>
<p>My S didn't want to put "Caucasian" on his Common App, so he put Norwegian (my ancestry) and Ashkenazi (his Dad's ancestry). I let him do it (we're not from the Caucasus after all) but I wonder what the schools will make of it. He did admit to American citizenship.</p>
<p>JHS:
Actually, Hebrew is the correct term for the ethnic groups. Of course people have intermarried into the group during its earliest generations. That would still make the descendants...Hebrew, at least in part. Now, it's true that Jews don't generally walk around calling themselves "Hebrew," but when defining ethnicity from religion, it's a useful term and one used frequently in humanities fields.</p>
<p>UCLAri:
It's interesting that you bring of the question of race vs. ethnicity. I've always refused to use the term race when defining groups of people, because it's inaccurate. There aren't different "races" of people walking around. In fact, the term race as it applies to people was used initially to show that groups of people were not comparable to other groups of people and to argue for ethnic purity. Regardless, it's definitely true that ethnic groups don't have hard and fast definitions. Groups have similarities while also having a separate identity.</p>
<p>DespSeekPhd,</p>
<p>Exactly! A person can also have several ethnic identities! I identify both as Jewish and as American and to a lesser extent as Iranian. And it's perfectly okay per the meaning of ethnicity.</p>
<p>Excellent post, JHS.</p>
<p>To TSDad, as Jew I do consider "Jewish" to reflect an ethnicity and a culture that goes far beyond a religion -- and I personally feel offended by anyone who would deny me that heritage. Northeasternmom - the problem with your statement about ancestry is that my ancestry is mixed -- I can trace my Ashkenazi roots to many different European countries, many different languages -- but 3 generations ago, they all spoke Yiddish as well as whatever the dominant language was in their country. When my daughter spent time in Russia, she was able to meet cousins who live in Moscow, and by learning Russian she is learning one of my great-grandfather's native languages -- but we are not of Russian ancestry. The Russian language connection comes from the dominance of the Tsarist Russian empire -- though of course Russia itself is a country encompassing many ethnicities. </p>
<p>As to the issue of bias in college admissions: I really don't care -- as far as I can tell, my kids have plenty of opportunities, and I wouldn't want them going where they aren't wanted. I'll bet that there are SOME colleges that are anti-semitic in their practices, whether overtly or unconsciously, and certainly there is antisemitism in campus life, reflected in the practices of many fraternities or sororities. </p>
<p>Many colleges are religiously-affiliated -- my daughter was accepted into Fordham and offered merit aid there, but certainly I wouldn't argue that a Catholic university is obligated to be blind to religious differences, especially when it comes to determining which deserving students will be subsidized with Catholic money (though the Fordham pharmacy school has a very interesting history in the service of a predominantly Jewish student body -- see <a href="http://www.library.fordham.edu/whatsnew/PharColl.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.library.fordham.edu/whatsnew/PharColl.htm</a> ) At the same time, when we looked at Boston College, we saw that only a tiny fraction of the student body is Jewish.... I don't know if that reflects the applicant pool or admission practices that may tend to favor applicants coming from Catholic-affiliated high schools.</p>
<p>calmom,</p>
<p>I think what people often overlook with Jews is how they lived in many places per the diaspora but also managed to maintain fairly distinct grouping from their current homelands. That led them to stay distinct from those around them, for better or for worse.</p>