<p>Coddling students is never helpful – it’s rare to receive such a candid response, and perhaps it’s better now to hear that in order to avoid rejection down the line. If you asked the question, you must have at least suspected the answer could be “Yes.”</p>
<p>I’m chiming in here to say that legacies are NOT given a break when it comes to standardized test scores. Unless a legacy has another powerful hook (athletic or development), he or she needs as high SAT scores as unhooked applicants. So please don’t say that “when you see kids under the median stats, they are legacies” etc., because that just isn’t true anymore.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about how this person responded to the question. Jason, I can tell you that I had a discussion with an admissions officer last year who said Brown is getting frustrated at some of the clearly unqualified apps that are coming in. I went to an Intro session this year where the sales pitch was definitely lower key than I’ve ever seen. I wonder if admissions had a discussion last summer and decided on some changes in presentation and honesty of answers.</p>
<p>OP, I’m sorry your daughter was turned off. Some students might have taken the response as a challenge, to study hard, retake and raise scores. I myself struggle on these boards with how honest to be with kids asking their chances – it’s tempting sometimes to be brutally honest. (Although every now and then I get a PM, tell the kid the truth, and then get attacked for it.)</p>
<p>I’ve interviewed and done recruiting talks for my Ivy alma mater for over 20 years. Once, I manned a table at a college fair with a fellow alumna. She was practically falling over herself trying to get kids interested and to perhaps apply to my school. I was aghast. The previous season we had dipped below the 10% admit rate threshold for the first time (recently we’re closer to 7%).</p>
<p>Here’s what I tell to my audiences (which I stole from an actual college rep who was visiting my area): If the student happens to be among the handful of top academics or otherwise most influential kids: known by the instructors and the principal – then they might be a viable candidate. The implication is that if not, then not. (go ask your HS principal who are the smartest seniors this year. Likely, he/she will know them by name.)</p>
<p>I’m not actively trying to discourage competive applicants – but I try to bring a dose of reality into the scene. If there are a dozen more qualified students in the building this very moment – how do they think their application will stack up in the extremely competitive pool of super selective school admissions?</p>
<p>This is a great thread no matter which school you are applying to… I have seen many admissions counselors skirt the issue of test scores in the past year that we have been looking @ schools. Its nice that this one was brutally honest. It was nice that he gave her another option(take the SAT)… she may hit that one out of the park. </p>
<p>And for the poster who has been slammed for being brutally honest…many a student has been coddled and can’t take it when a stranger tells them like it is… I think its a great thing… so at least they can look at themselves objectivelly(sp?) and figure out how to either improve OR set their sights on another set of reach schools. </p>
<p>My DD14 wants to apply to Harvard + Stanford… but I have told her that she will have to continue to work hard so she will be worthy enough to apply… or it will be a waste of time and money… though she is a URM and first generation college student, she can’t allow those “hooks” to lull her into a sense of mediocrity…I want her to be admitted for her merit… not as a student who is there to only fill a “pity” quota(thats my feeling, please don’t flame me)</p>
<p>I saw the term “development” used from a few posters… what does this mean? Please excuse my ignorance.</p>
<p>Also, some kids do better on ACT, some do better on SAT. My kid was not so hot on ACT (just a little better than OP poster’s child), but very strong on SAT. They have different emphasis. Remember, Brown has, what a 10 percent admit rate. That means that super-amazing students aren’t getting in. If you want to apply, go ahead–it’s a crapshoot for everyone. But if you can, take the SAT and see how that goes. BTW, I thought the Brown people were pretty snooty also. But still. And I agree with Oldfort that telling kids that 1800 is adequate to get into Harvard is just sad.</p>
<p>NewHavenCTmom, the phrase “development candidate” in Admissions is a code word meaning that if the student is admitted, the family may make sizable donations to the school.</p>
<p>choryphee: there’s not “may” about it. Development admits are children/grandchildren/relatives of collossal donors. For the Ivies, that means 7 figures. And not the low 7-figures either.</p>
<p>Wow … ok thanks for the clarification…</p>
<p>Dev admits aren’t necessarily relatives beyond kids/grandkids- IME, I saw a complaint letter from the big time donor (yes, 7 figures) who couldn’t swing low-end relative into to a top school. (Either his nephew or his wife’s nephew.) Not pretty. </p>
<p>If there were a “bar” and it were set at 29ACT, there simply wouldn’t be anyone falling under that. OP suggested her kid has some grand resume and a unique background. We don’t now the extent of her convo with the rep, whether she even got to describe more. We can’t guess if she is desirable enough to overcome a 28. </p>
<p>As for legacies, no they don’t fill the under-median category. But, they can sometimes fall into a lower part of the acceptable “range.” Depends on many factors. I only meant to generalize there, explain that many kids under median have a draw other than simply URM or athlete. </p>
<p>Of course top schools are getting tired of dreamer apps or the kids who think lightning may strike them. But, “holistic” presents a challenge. Sorry if this is controversial. The idea is you cannot judge on stats alone. The wise weigh whether they have a “whole package” that could be competitive.</p>
<p>^ If you build and name the new science center, your nephew with a 28 ACT will get in when you call your developmental office contact. A million dollars ain’t what it used to be.</p>
<p>At this point Brown admits 225 athletes per class. And ~15% of each class is made up of children of alumni. that means 225+225 = 450 legacy+athletes. Even if there is some overlap, say at the very least 350 unique admits, who might have lower scores than the rest. There’s your 21% under 28 (at least a sizable part of it/ consider it with a grain of salt, most legacies I know here are very good at academics). At this point I hope you see how unlikely it is for people not in these categories to get in with those scores. However, it is not unheard of.</p>
<p>guitarclassical: The numbers I’ve seen are that 10-11 percent of students are children of alumni. And it is totally false that legacy acceptances typically fall in the bottom quartile. Every single legacy admit I’ve known had high test scores and stellar grades.</p>
<p>Who is in the bottom quartile? I’ve never seen an analysis, but my guess is that there are development/celebrity admits, athletes, URMs, students for whom English is their second language, kids from very rural or innercity high schools, first-generation college students. Some students may have unbalanced scores (750 CR, 640 Math). </p>
<p>A typical upper-middle class suburban kid with no hooks, whose parents are college educated with professional jobs, would have an exceedingly slim chance of getting into Brown with scores in the bottom quartile.</p>
<p>I think the admissions officer was doing the school a disservice by dismissing the OP and her daughter like that. I am genuinely upset by this. Brown is a welcoming place and one of the entire points of this school is you don’t get judged before you’re given a fair shot. I feel the admissions officer makes the school look snotty, pretentious, and rude, which is the last thing an Ivy League school needs.</p>
<p>The answer was correct, frankly speaking, though. There are kids here who got a 28 and didn’t have too much else going on in their application. They’re very smart, put-together, and had exceptional grades. </p>
<p>However… considering that most applicants are not 99% brilliant with a 1% weakness (like really long standardized testing), and that the OP’s daughter falls in the “most applicants” category, NOW is the time to retake the ACT or take the SAT. </p>
<p>There is a huge jump in selectivity between Pitt and Brown – and while Pitt is a cool school, it’s pretty hugely different than Brown. I don’t understand the OP’s daughter’s overreaction when it comes to admission hopes. I’d (1) retake the exams, (2) apply to Brown anyway, (3) also pursue schools that are similar in academic approach and are not quite as large as Pitt.</p>
<p>In the OP’s write up, there is candor but no overt rudeness or snottiness. I agree with you that Brown is a welcoming place – but it also has an obligation to being forthright rather than engage in continual marketing-ese. As I said in an earlier post, I was aghast at my fellow alumna who was basically hard-selling random students at a college fair to apply to our HYP alma mater.</p>
<p>Yet I’m very welcoming of nervous students/parents – but my words are also couched by caution and realism. Frankly, I think I get many kids interested in applying and hopefully, I’ve re-directed unrealistic applicants to look elsewhere.</p>
<p>I saw nothing pretentious, rude or of a disservice to Brown from the description offered. Frankly she offered the OPs daughter a remedy – retake SAT.</p>
<p>Wow! I didn’t realize what a firestorm my post would start ! :)</p>
<p>I agree that the admissions counselor could have (should have) told D about the unlikeliness of her admittance, but to tell her outright that she would not be considered at all was out of line, I believe. D is well known in her school by teachers and administration; probably more so than higher ranked students. Unfortunately, many schools miss out on accepting intelligent & talented leaders due to SAT/ACT scores. But I guess that’s the reality of it…Hopefully, colleges will move towards a more holistic approach someday. </p>
<p>D’s mindset is: I don’t want a school that doesn’t want me. lol</p>
<p>Once again…she will bloom where she is planted. (As will everyone else.)
Good luck to everyone on this board who is applying to Brown.</p>
<p>If you accurately reported the conversation, then Brown did not tell her outright that she would not be considered. You said the admin said “we probably wouldn’t consider her.” I know I’m parsing words, but the modifier “probably” means the outcome is not predetermined.</p>
<p>I wish we could go back to the days when a wonderful student with lower scores could get into the top schools. I agree that many future leaders are overlooked. There are many great schools out there and I’m sure your daughter will do just fine.</p>
<p>They will still read the file and look for anything unique that would make the 28 less of an issue. The admission person may not have been basing chances on the ACT alone either, he/she may have been very familiar with the school your D was applying from. It seems most people who apply to schools like Brown with a 28 range score and do get admitted have that “circumstance” whatever it may be. Imagine a student with similar grades and scores but was homeless for a while, or lives in a one room apartment with 15 other people. Admission officers have that perspective.</p>
<p>I am a college admissions counselor at a well-respected high school in the Boston area, and, as such, have been dealing with Brown admissions staff for nearly 30 years. I am a HUGE fan of Brown as an institutions and have helped a couple of dozen of my students get into Brown over my career. In the end, I think the admissions staff does a great job of picking interesting kids to form a very distinctive student body. Virtually all my Brown matriculants end up ecstatic about their experiences there.</p>
<p>Having said that, I must also note that I get more negative feedback from parents and students about the Brown admissions office staff than from any other Ivy league school. There are some great people who work there, but in many interactions, the culture of that office is way more snooty, brusque or crass than it really ought to be; and it is in a way that I really don’t think reflects the actual culture or vibe of the school.</p>
<p>Case in point. Many kids who are looking at Brown often consider Yale as well. Yale obviously is every bit as prestigious and competitive to get into as Brown – maybe a tad more so. But I don’t think I’ve ever had a student visit Yale and come away feeling put off; it happens all the time at Brown.</p>
<p>I am not sure where I stand on the particular case in question, I am sort of on the fence about it. But I do think the problem is bigger than this one incident.</p>
<p>hi,
look…i understand that a 28 is below average for brown, but it is disguisting hearing everyone act like a 28 composite is low by any means considering a 28 composite is in the top 10% of all scores in the country.</p>
<p>^ If there are 1.6 million ACT test scores a year, then approximately 150,000 students score 28 or better. That is an impressive score for the vast majority of universities but it is “low by any means” when applying to Brown which is amongst the most selective schools in the country. Think of how many unique students are admitted to the top 20 universities and you’ll realize how small that number is compared to 150,000.</p>