<p>Dstark:</p>
<p>Well, I suppose my S would have made his peace with eternal sunshine in Palo Alto (I pushed him to apply there). But why settle for sunshine when you can have snowstorms?</p>
<p>Marite, you are asking somebody that lives on the left coast this question? :)</p>
<p>Interesting Q&A from Tulane website:</p>
<p>Q: Is there a difference between the classifications that host institutions use for students, such as visitor, guest, temporary, non-matriculating, etc.?</p>
<p>A: Tulane students attending colleges and universities may be classified in a variety of ways. Regardless of how you are classified you are considered a Tulane student by your host institution. </p>
<p>The terminology used is not particularly important. What is relevant is that Tulane students attending these classes are expected to return to Tulane for the Spring semester and have their courses posted to their transcripts.</p>
<p>Well, it seems these students will just have to go to Tulane for a semester and apply to other schols - Harvard and as many as they want - for transfer. If they did well, they will have good references from their Harvard professors. The Tulane they applied to is not the Tulane it is now. New Orleans is a very different plae. I visited it a few weeks ago and was saddened. There will be students who will, for personal reasons, choose to go to school in this atmosphere. There will be others who will choose to transfer or just not apply because it will not be the college experience it once was. I hope this institution comes back, but it won't help it to be filled by students who are doing everything possible to get out. Visit New Orleans and see for yourself. There is lot there to be much sadder about than where a group of students go to college for a semester.</p>
<p>Wasn't there a recent posting by "The Mods" reminding posters to hold their spite when criticizing universities that might be near and dear to other readers? Wouldn't it be nice if posters, especially mods, stuck to the CC rules?</p>
<p>Tulane is in the straights. Hopefully, Cowen is good at pulling money out of thin air. Their endowment was always a fraction of comparable institutions like WashU and Emory. As much as everyone loves Cowen, he may not stick around to make Save Tulane his career. It will be along hard slog and a bean counter might gbe better suited for the harsher realities.</p>
<p>New Orleans is in the straights too. The proposition of returning to a NOLA university at $40k a year isn't quite what everyone imagined when they evacuated. If a student got a big merit package, they probably have fewer concerns than families who have to write out a $20k check in January. </p>
<p>Mini, New Orleans, a city of one million Americans, needs prestige institutions like Tulane as much as it need UNO, Xavier, Loyola and others. New Orleans needs the Tulane medical school and the School of International Health. </p>
<p>All the same, agreements were made, institution to institution. Those must be binding to allow for future agreements. Will there be loopholes? Will some students take a Gap year rather than return? Will there be easier transfers for visiting students in sophomore year? Quite possibly. Will there be transgressors who will keep the tuition paying students for their own coffers? Possibly. </p>
<p>It's a messy situation. Black and white judgements do not apply. Each student will decide for themselves and that will be that. For freshman especially, it isn't an easy call even if the student doesn't have lung problems. </p>
<p>The coleges and universities in New Orleans will survive, but the form and shape is as yet unknown. </p>
<p>The institutions have said they are struggling and I believe them.</p>
<p>Somehow I don't think there would be such outrage expressed if it was an article about a handful of Tulane students who wanted to remain at Oklahoma State. The resentment isn't really about ungrateful Tulane students who have the audacity to abandon a college they never attended -- they didn't ask for the hurricane, and as much as everyone hopes that Tulane and New Orleans will soon return to their former glory... I can understand why some students might be very reluctant to return at this point. (The Nova program I watched tonight about the state of New Orleans' levee's and future hurricanes was not too encouraging) In any case, students don't "owe" any college the obligation of continuing to provide post-disaster tuition dollars -- and Tulane will be able to find other students to replace those lost through attrition. </p>
<p>I think what is going on here is purely resentment that some students who were admitted to a 43rd ranked school might worm their way into the #1 ranked school, bypassing normal admissions processes. How dare they taint the hallowed Harvard traditions by even thinking they are good enough? </p>
<p>Anyway, it smells like elitism to me. Not necessarily from the Harvard ranks itself -- from what I can gather from the Crimson articles, the issue doesn't seem to be provoking nearly as much controversy there as it does on this board. Harvard isn't planning on kicking out any current first years to make room for these kids - nor will their presence affect the number of spots available for this year's crop of applicants. So the problem isn't that anyone is hurt by the possibility of some kids whose presence at Harvard is the fortuitious result of tragic events. Nor is the problem that any other college will be forced to follow Harvard's lead - Harvard is a private college, it can do what it wants. Many of the lesser ranked colleges that have opened their doors to Tulane evacuees would probably be delighted to keep them in any case. So the real question isn't, should Tulane refugees be allowed to continue at their host colleges if they want to... but rather it is a question addressed only to those Tulane refugees who happened to end up at top ranked elite colleges. </p>
<p>Personally, I don't think its anybody's business outside of Harvard and the students involved. The tuition/money issue is a different matter, that should be resolved in a way that respects Tulane's needs but also respects the reality that Tulane is not the same school it once was, nor is New Orleans the same city. I sincerely hope that the future will hold better -- but I can see the point of view of students who feel that fate has now led them in a different direction.</p>
<p>I wonder.....On some level might it not be considered collusion for the universities to have determined that a student who accepted the 'temporary' status at another university could not stay at that university? I mean, we are not talking about public law, we are talking about a 'gentleman's agreement.' That said, presumably (I don't know since we were not impacted on any level) agreements were signed by those who are participating in this situation, and individuals should be expected to live by their 'word.' </p>
<p>This is not just about Harvard or Tulane, and it is not just about this particular agreement. It is about kids learning a true lesson in life- not that life is not always fair, but that life is filled with choices. If the Tulane students had the choice of opting out initially, and they chose to opt in, then they are 'in.' I realize the circumstances were difficult and probably rushed to an extent, but sometimes difficult decisions in life are like that. </p>
<p>As for the particular kids involved, they have all had the chance to experience life on another college campus and they have learned, probably in many cases, that in fact a given student can indeed by HAPPY at many different places. If they take that attitude with them to Tulane, it will be a more healthful start. If they don't, or if they learn that they are not happy with Tulane, then they can transfer. Tulane might need and want their tuition money, but Tulane neither needs nor wants unhappy students. </p>
<p>I know kids who moved 3-4 times in 2 years of high school due to terrorist activity. Was it ideal, no. Did they cope, yes. Did they appreciate the fact that their 'suffering' was minimal compared with that of those truly impacted..you bet they did. </p>
<p>The Tulane, Xavier, ULNO, etc kids are only kids. They will follow the lead of adults- their parents and the universities, on this one. If adults demonstrate integrity, the kids will follow. Self pity is a highly unattractive quality and should not be rewarded.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Concerneddad: that was what I was talking about; that was aimed at a particular poster, and yeah, I do think it was beneath the level of discourse I would expect from you personally and as a moderator.</p>
<p>Dstark:</p>
<p>Regarding the weather, snow is predicted for today. Last time it snowed a couple of weeks ago, the CA and TX kids knocked at S's door and invited him to join them and come out and play. </p>
<p>More seriously, aside from the weather, there probably are more similarities between Harvard, Tulane and Duke (where Tulane students have also asked to stay) than between either of these three and a very large state university or a very small LAC. With similar tuition levels, I expect the student bodies at these schools also come from the same socio-economic strata. So I am not surprised that the Tulane students who were displced to Duke, Harvard (and I'm sure some other schools) feel right at home. </p>
<p>Cheers: The latest issue of Time carries a cover story on NOLA. Huge problems definitely persist. </p>
<p>Roby: Welcome back. I would expect that many of the students who are currently at Harvard and Duke and wish to stay would be eligible for transfer (for fall 2006) if they are able to demonstrate that they have done well. As I've said before, at Harvard, finals are not until the third and fourth week of January. But I'm guessing that they would have an advantage over other transfer applicants.</p>
<p>"The biggest issue to me is the whole concept of fit. How can Tulane students do well at Harvard?"</p>
<p>As a Harvard alum, I have no doubt that there are students who can fit in and thrive at Harvard even though they are from Tuane, Xavier and whatever colleges have sent visting students to Harvard as a result of the hurricane.</p>
<p>It is a myth that Harvard's academics are so rigorous that only geniuses can survive. What makes Harvard Harvard is having classes filled with bright, talented students with the courage and confidence to pursue their interests with independence and energy. Presumably the visiting students who chose to go to Harvard and who are happy there have those characteristics.</p>
<p>It's important to remember that about 85% of students who apply to Harvard have the ability to thrive at Harvard if they were accepted. The only reason that most aren't accepted is due to a lack of space. There are thousands of students in this country -- including some who attend community colleges and third tier colleges -- who could have done well at Harvard if they had been informed enough to apply and if they had been fortunate enough to be accepted.</p>
<p>As to whether the visiting students should remain at Harvard: I think that Harvard should honor the gentleman's agreement. I don't blame the students for wanting to stay after they've tasted the caviar of collegiate life in the U.S. I do think, however, that they should honor their agreement. If they now realize that they'd prefer a Harvard or similar college to Tulane, they should apply to transfer to such colleges in fall, 2006.</p>
<p>I think it's fine if they choose not to return to Tulane in the spring. The Tulane that they agreed to go to no longer exists. I don't think, however, that it would be OK for them to expect that Harvard will accept them as transfer students for the spring. I don't blame them for wanting to remain. I do think, however, that their reasons (friends, comfort with their new homes) are not compelling enough for them to be accepted as automatic transfers to Harvard.</p>
<p>"As I've said before, at Harvard, finals are not until the third and fourth week of January. But I'm guessing that they would have an advantage over other transfer applicants."</p>
<p>I agree with the caveat that I'm sure the adcoms would weigh heavily how much the students contributed to Harvard while they were on campus.</p>
<p>Harvard greatly values independence and the demonstrated ability to make a difference. If all that the transfer aspirants had done was to get good grades at Harvard, my guess is that would not be enough to guarantee them seats.</p>
<p>If, for instance, an aspiring transfer student had conducted a successful fundraising campaign for hurricane victims or had managed to win a class officer position -- and had accomplished some tangible things in that position -- such students probably would be at an advantage.</p>
<p>If a student basically had just made friends and gotten decent grades in class, that wouldn't indicate that the student would be on the short list for transferring. It's not hard to make good grades at Harvard, which is well known for its grade inflation. </p>
<p>A student whose main bid for transferring is, "I like it here. I have friends, enjoy my classes and don't want to start anew elsewhere," would not be making an argument in favor of their admission. Harvard is not interested in dependant types of students, but students with the guts to try new things and not only survive, but thrive and lead.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Tulane, Xavier, ULNO, etc kids are only kids. They will follow the lead of adults- their parents and the universities, on this one. If adults demonstrate integrity, the kids will follow. Self pity is a highly unattractive quality and should not be rewarded.
[/quote]
Thank you, roby</p>
<p>"There is a significant diffference between Harvard and Tulane" </p>
<p>"The biggest issue to me is the whole concept of fit. How can Tulane students do well at Harvard?"</p>
<p>"Fit is not just about being able to do well. It's about liking a school and thriving both socially and academically." </p>
<p>"I'm surprised that concerneddad would use his position as a "moderator" to be so immoderate."</p>
<p>"Wasn't there a recent posting by "The Mods" reminding posters to hold their spite when criticizing universities that might be near and dear to other readers? Wouldn't it be nice if posters, especially mods, stuck to the CC rules?"</p>
<p>Concerneddad:</p>
<p>I will respond to the only two excerpts that involve me personally. The first one is by Dstark, who says his post was tongue-in-cheek. I responded that fit is not just about doing well academically. You left out the bit about the Palo Alto weather which illustrated exactly what I mean by fit. For most people, Stanford might be next to paradise, but not for my snow-loving son. That's what I mean by fit. Other aspects might be urban/rural/suburban location or size. But colleges are a bit like shoes. If you wear a size 6, a size 5 will kill your feet, and so will a size 8. But there are plenty of different styles of size 6 shoes.</p>
<p>CD--Wow, you really misunderstood Dstark's point, didn't you?</p>
<p>And you left your own quote off the list--the one with the personal attack in it.</p>
<p>All,</p>
<p>At the end of the day it is not about whether the Tulane students can do the work at Harvard. That should not determine whether they should get in. Harvard and a number of other schools are proud of saying that they could have accepted 4 or 5 classes that can do the work. It is about room in the class and how the class is assembled.</p>
<p>I agree with Xiggi, many schools showed their heart and allowed students to attend as visiting students. Now the schools have to show their spine and let them know that the visit is over. If they want to come to the school full time they should follow the process for all other students who want to transfer.</p>
<p>What is interesting to me is the amount of discussion that has been generated over 5 students at H. Yes I understand that the original article posted came from the Crimson but still. What about other schools that took more? What is their policy? From reading the Massachusetts Colleges web-site it appears that Boston College took 100 students impacted by the hurricane. I don't know what their policy is but I would expect it to be similar to Harvard's. These 100 students would have a larger impact on the finances of the impacted schools than the 5 at Harvard. Further, the 5 do not even appear to fill the quota that Harvard set of 25.</p>
<p>Here is a reference to the web-site:</p>
<p>I actually think it is great that there was this much coordination in making the best of a bad situation. The next step in restoring New Orleans is getting the displaced back to rebuild . . . that includes the students at the impacted universities.</p>
<p>Listen to your self:</p>
<p>"There is a significant difference between Harvard and Tulane" </p>
<p>"The biggest issue to me is the whole concept of fit. How can Tulane students do well at Harvard?"</p>
<p>"Fit is not just about being able to do well. It's about liking a school and thriving both socially and academically." </p>
<p>"I'm surprised that concerneddad would use his position as a "moderator" to be so immoderate."</p>
<p>"Wasn't there a recent posting by "The Mods" reminding posters to hold their spite when criticizing universities that might be near and dear to other readers? Wouldn't it be nice if posters, especially mods, stuck to the CC rules?"</p>
<p>First, let me respond to the criticism of my status as a moderator. I am a hybrid -- a parent and a mod. And, I do not moderate in this forum. When I post here, I do so as a parent, not as a mod.</p>
<p>Second, I have opinions, and I will express them. If you visit school A and the dorms are run down and you comment upon it, or the staff is not welcoming and you comment upon it, that is far game. When I visited H, and H's chosen representative was imperious, I get to comment on it. It is fair game. And, to be fair to H, I left a comment to that effect because I am sure that is not the impression that want to leave people with who have flow clear across the country to visit. As far as any comments to a particular poster, H being generous to gulf coast students neither makes it unique, nor changes my impression of H. What about Cornell -- which by most accounts took in many more displaced students? What about small schools like Amherst, Pomona, or state schools like Mich. or Oregon. Contrary to some belief -- it is NOT ALL ABOUT H. </p>
<p>Now, onto some of these other comments. Anyone surprised by Tulane kids doing well at H or anywhere else is either ignorant or an elitist. As other have said, thousands of kids who applied to H or Y of S could have thrived there. All they needed was what H or Y or S wanted that year -- a running back, a higher jumper, an sax player, a debate team member, some interested in the sex habits of zebra fish. In short, any notion that one H kid is anymore capable than one of these displaced kids, is a heck of a lot more offensive to me than any comment I made regarding the treatment we received at H, or the slavish, lapdog drooling that some have to these elite schools.</p>
<p>Third, do not make me laugh when these 5 Tulane kids talk about hardship. You want to know about hardship? Ask my son, and the 19 other Tulane Emergency Medical Service kids what hardship is in the wake of Katrina and Rita. 40 straight days of triaging and transporting the sick and wounded. Blue tagging the living and having to place them in make shift morgues and try and convince them they will not die even though there was not enough medical equipment to treat them. Going on search and rescue and what a law enforcement offer shoot some looter in the face -- three times. Eating MARES, sleeping on cots, getting booted out of a condemned dorm at LSU and having to find a place to live after FEMA moved out of Baton Rouge in a city that swelled to over twice its size. Oh, and then trying -- as these kids did -- to take classes like O. Chem at LSU. You want hardship, there is hardship. Hardship is not vising H or Y or S or anyone of the 100's of school that extended a hand to displaced students. And no, I am not dismissing the plight that these kids faced, seniors who's graduation was put in jeopardy, freshmen who were robbed of the excitement that the first weeks would have provided. The extra money and costs to families. Those no less hardships. But, let's keep it real folks.</p>
<p>Finally, let me talk about fit. Fit is what had my son reject offers from many of the schools that others only dream of. Tulane was warm and welcoming to him. They offered him the moon and the stars, and they delivered. All he ever wanted to be (after he realized he would not be the next Emitt Smith) was a doctor. While the "worst natural disaster" the country had ever experienced was not in the Tulane catalog, the opportunities Tulane did provide him with the opportunity he wanted: to prove himself in the crucible of the real world. And, even in the midst of this crisis, the Tulane administration made the time to contact me and allow these TEMS kids to stay in Baton Rouge to eat MRE, sleep on cots, and oh yeah -- save lives! That my friends is fit!!</p>
<p>If my posts have offended anyone, I ask you to ask yourself why? Is your intent to make sure your kids are as happy as they can be, or -- like the scarecrow -- do they need a particular piece of paper to prove how good they are to others.</p>
<p>marite, I happen to agree with you on fit. And Garland, it was only later that dstark mentioned his comment was tongue-in-cheek. Unfortunatley, while dstark may have been jesting, there are too many that actaully are shocked that these Tulane kids can do well at H.</p>
<p>Chiming in to agree with jmmom and roby on this one. Let's look at an analogy:</p>
<p>I go out and buy a nice bagging lawnmower. I go to pick it up, but there is a glitch. They are out of stock, and I will not get it until next week. But my lawn needs to be cut NOW. My neighbor generously offers me the use of his top-rated riding mower. Under the integrity of a gentlemen's agreement, I borrow it with the implicit understanding that it WILL be returned. I use it, and lo and behold, I <em>LOVE</em> it. Without ever having used my OWN lawnmower first, I decide that this is the one for me, and having used it, I now consider it mine. To hell with the contract I entered to buy the other mower. To hell with the fact that the riding mower doesn't rightfully belong to me. I LIKE it, so I CLAIM it. I think that just about anyone can see that this is a fundamentally wrong position and one that is sorely lacking in integrity.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Eagle79:</p>
<p>Harvard College actually took 36 students (11 more than it originally agreed to take in; some are not Tulane students). The professional schools took other students as well, though the total numbers have not been publicized. Of the 36 students at the College, 10 are freshmen. And of those, 5 asked to stay.</p>
<p>I agree with you that other schools, such as BC took more, and the impact on them was greater than at Harvard, and the impact on Tulane of their not returning would be greater as well. I do think the best thing to do is for all colleges which accepted NOLA students to stick by the original agreement, with some exceptions to accommodate students whose return to NOLA would be a hardship such as Mom60's D.</p>