Diversity vs Integration

Parents Forum
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<p>I've been meaning to ask this for a while now, but was reminded by Oldfort's post in the infamous "How did HE get in?" thread.</p>

<p>To know how diverse a university is we can look at the numbers. But how well integrated these diverse groups are with the student body as a whole, is harder to discern. I find that photos which are used on college websites to show the diversity often times show how separate the different races or nationalities actually are on campus. But I know that pictures don't tell the whole story at all. Any idea where to get information about how integrated a college/uni is? I know an obvious answer is to visit, but aside from that any ideas? Another diversity, which isn't always obvious in photos, is socioeconomic. Other than students first hand accounts, I'm not sure how to find out about that either.</p>

<p>I would think that it's certainly possible to have an extremely diverse school which is highly segregated and also possible to have one with less diversity but a well integrated student body. Any thoughts or, even better, first hand experience with this would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>I think the best way to find out from sitting at home would be to log onto CC, go into that school’s subforum, and ask there what the students that go there think. No all schools have a very active subforum, but it should give you an idea for schools that do. </p>

<p>I agree that there is a very notable difference between the two. In addition, diversity means different things when people talk about it. Should the measure be the non-White population, or some measure that incorporates how well each race is represented. For instance, can a school with no Blacks or Hispanics be diverse? </p>

<p>There will likely be notable differences between different majors within the same school as well. I know at my school, the racial and national demographics of Econ are FAR different from the racial demographics of AeroE for instance. </p>

<p>Beyond racial segregation between Americans (ie. White Americans hang out with other White Americans, Asian Americans hang out with other Asian Americans, Black Americans hang out with other Black Americans), I think there’s an additional national segregation (ie. Chinese hang out with other Chinese, and Asian Americans and Chinese are not interchangeable) which occurs for a variety of reasons. </p>

<p>I think too much integration could be overwhelming for some, and it’s not something everyone wants. Additionally, I think too little integration could possibly be disappointing to some, especially those at non-diverse schools in minority groups, where they may be one of only a few. </p>

<p>It’d be hard to come up with any quantitative metric for integration in the same way you can come up with one for diversity.</p>

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<p>Maybe if you go to the cafeteria on campus, you can get a feel for whether there is integration.</p>

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<p>A crude way to check this is to find out what percentage of students receive Pell grants. A rough guess is that about 35-40% of families with high school senior or college students have income levels that would be eligible to receive Pell grants (federal methodology EFC < $4,995 for 2012-2013).
[Economic</a> Diversity | Rankings | Top National Universities | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity]Economic”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity)</p>

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<p>This is something ds1 noticed while touring our flagship. Lots of diversity, all clumped together – Chinese students walking together, black kids sitting together, etc. He asked, What good is a diverse student body if it’s not integrated? It’s something I look for now whenever I’m on a college campus.</p>

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<p>Just because nonwhite students “clump together” doesn’t mean that there is no integration. Students have 24 hours a day. If their dorms are integrated and their classes are integrated and their teams are integrated, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to hang out with people in their demographic group. It can be a comfort, especially if they are a definite minority and the faculty is mostly white as well.</p>

<p>And that goes double (at least!) for international students. Who wouldn’t want to be able to speak the language of home among fellow speakers after hours and hours of talking and reading in a second language? Have you traveled in a foreign country? When I did, even when I didn’t like Americans I met on the road, it was good to be able not to translate in my head before I opened my mouth.</p>

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<p>agree strongly with the points made by oldmom.</p>

<p>why do people complain and get ‘disappointed’ about racial “clumping” on university campuses when that’s how it is in america–we are a very segregated country! poor folks live in poor neighborhoods, rich with rich, racially we’re segregated, etc. why do we expect our college campuses to somehow, magically be any different?</p>

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<p>The unfavorable reactions that tend to come when suggesting an HB school to a white student because the HB school is a good match for constraints like net price, academic majors offered, etc. do indicate that there is the implicit assumption that white students want to be where there are lots of other white students, as opposed being members of a minority group. (and that is probably why HB schools tend to remain 80-95% black)</p>

<p>Extrapolating this to members of other racial and ethnic groups, it is not surprising that there is some level of self-segregation at many schools as people in general seem to want to hang out with their own kind. While better social integration among racial and ethnic groups is considered desirable by most people, most people’s actual social networks are likely less well integrated than what they would claim to idealize.</p>

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<p>DS chose his fraternity largely because it was one of the most diverse on campus. In truth between fraternity life and sports on his campus there is a lot of integration. Even the Black Student Union has white associates as does the Hispanic Student group. Still, if you walked on the campus you very well might see the Asian students together or a group of African Americans hanging out studying together. It has to do with common interests and in the case of going to school in the middle of nowhere, shared experiences as a fish out of water in the tiny town. Heck my DS hangs out a lot with the other liberals on campus too. It is nice to be able to be with people who understand you without an argument.</p>

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<p>I think there is more social economic integration in college and more race segregation. In college, students all live and eat togethere. There are few schools which offer better housing for students with money. Students also tend not to discuss about their family except with very close friends. So it is not always obvious what a students social economic background is, and I would also assume most students don’t really care. Whereas race and cultural are very obvious. D1 went out of her way trying to be friendly with some Asians on her floor, a lot of those students ignored her, some were outright rude. My nephew is American Chinese going to the same school, and most of his friends are Asians. Their experience at the same school is different.</p>

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<p>SES integration might not be as great as assumed. Many students attend community colleges or commuter-oriented four year schools where they meet only in class and go their separate ways to their established homes (which are often SES segregated based on real estate prices in various locations) after class.</p>

<p>Even many residential colleges do not have a high degree of SES diversity to have much SES integration. Many others do not have a tradition of students living together in the dorms for four years, or even enough dorm space for that to be possible, so the students go their separate ways in finding off-campus places to live, often constrained by their family finances.</p>

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<p>I agree that schools that offer fancier accomodations for those who pay more are likely to unintentionally segregate kids by income. It was one of the things I liked least about Carnegie Mellon. (Although I can’t really argue with the discount for kids tripled in rooms intended as doubles, which is quite common.) If you can’t visit, you might look up clubs, music groups, fraternities and sororities and see what their photos look like. They are less likely to be photo ops put together by the marketing folks. </p>

<p>I do think there is some tendency at all colleges (and high schools) for there to be some segregation at least some of the time. That said, my son took a course freshman year in college that is quite popular with international students and students interested in international relations and that was so time consuming and involved so much collaboration (including a weekend activity early on), that everyone in the course became good friends, and those friendships have really shaped his experience in college. He still misses the economic diversity of his high school.</p>

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<p>Sometimes, that is hard to avoid, when the campus builds new dorms that may be more or less desirable than the old dorms (e.g. the new ones may have better design due to avoiding poor design features of the old ones, or the new ones may have smaller rooms due to wanting to pack more rooms into the same land). The school then has to choose between offering the same price for all dorms (those stuck in the worse dorms might not like paying the same price for worse dorms) or offering different prices (which may cause some level of SES segregation in the dorms).</p>

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<p>ucbalumnus, some schools solve that problem by offering upperclassmen first choice of accommodations.</p>

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<p>Well I can only speak for my experience at Harvard where there were wildly different choices and some years I had horrible rooms and others I had great ones. It all ended up evening out and it never occured to me that I should get some discount because I had a one room double freshman year vs. a single in a suite with a living room senior year. Everyone had nicer rooms senior year, but we paid the same every year, knowing that eventually we’d earn those nice rooms.</p>

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<p>Vladenschlutte, I agree that not everyone going to college is looking for this integration. I’m trying to find out which schools tend to be more segregated and which ones tend to be more inclusive. I also don’t think it’s necessary to come up with a formula or some such by which to measure each school. The ideal is to visit and spend time in the cafeteria and other areas as Collegealum314 suggested. But as you’ve said, I’m trying to find this information via the internet.</p>

<p>Ucbalumnus, that is a great way to find out about SE diversity, but it’s information about whether the different “classes” mix well, or if they tend to stick together in groups outside of academics.</p>

<p>Youdon’tsay, exactly! That’s what we’re trying to avoid. Would you be willing to specify which university that was, or which ones you have found to have better integration?</p>

<p>Oldmom4896, yes I have traveled and I understand about the comfort of meeting another English speaker and talking easily. Avoiding people like yourself isn’t what I’m looking for; it’s the intentional avoidance of people who are different that we’re trying to avoid.</p>

<p>Heavylidded, would love for those who have visited colleges/unis to give their impressions on what they’ve seen on campuses!</p>

<p>For fear of what I’ve written being lost like socks in the dryer lol, I’ll continue in my next post.</p>

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<p>SoMuch2Learn, I think you should be asking current students this question, rather than visitors to campuses. It’s not just a matter of matching up skin color and eye shape when cruising the cafeteria or the paths between buildings.</p>

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<p>Calimami, that is true in many neighborhoods, but not all. But this isn’t about neighborhoods, it’s about college campuses. To me, diversity is a huge part of the educational experience, especially at residential colleges. Students broaden their knowledge and views on so many things when they make friends with people who have lived in different countries, had different cultural experiences, etc… A reporting of people’s experiences would benefit someone hoping to avoid such interaction as well as those who seek it.</p>

<p>Ucbalumnus, yes I agree with your post #9. Sad, but true.</p>

<p>MizzBee, integration doesn’t mean avoiding being with people who look like you or think like you do either. I would find it odd if people had an aversion to people who were most like them. lol</p>

<p>Oldfort, interesting observation being able to see it from the two different perspectives. I would imagine it varies based on individual experiences at most schools.</p>

<p>Ucbalumnus, good point about the housing. I wonder if strong housing programs, with all four years on campus, might make a difference. Again, it would be really helpful to have more specific information on individual colleges/unis.</p>

<p>Mathmom, thank you for the photo suggestion! Your son is very lucky to have had such a great experience. I think it’s great when a university makes an effort to provide for such opportunities. Would you be willing to share where he attends?</p>

<p>Ucbalumnus, I thought that a lot of schools tend to “reserve” the worst dorms for the freshmen and the best are kept for the upperclassmen and sometimes those in the honors college/program. Thank you, we’ll keep that in mind. lol If I had read ahead, I would have seen that Oldmom4896 beat me to that.</p>

<p>Mathmom, thanks for sharing about Harvard. I know that some time has passed since you’ve been there, but how was the integration? Any idea what it’s like now?</p>

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<p>Oldmom4896, good point. I’m so used to reading here and didn’t think to post where students themselves would be more likely to reply. I’ve always felt that, as a parent, I shouldn’t invade the space of the students. lol But I think that might be a good idea. Thank you.</p>

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<p>Yes, SES diversity with all or most students living on-campus (with little or no variation in price between different dorms, and little or no SES-related status associated with the different dorms) all four years is likely to give more SES integration than if the college has other types of living situations or little SES diversity.</p>

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<p>That may be true for colleges where students live in the dorms all four years. But colleges which do not have enough dorms to house all students all four years (often because there is not enough student demand for such, or because the residential college experience was not originally considered essential to the school’s function – this is common at state universities) may guarantee dorm space only for new frosh and sometimes new transfer students.</p>