Divorce, non-custodial parent, and college funding, aka, a 529 would come in handy

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm glad to hear some states are setting up some guidelines for who is responsible for paying. At the time of my divorce, ages ago now, only Mass. figured college into the divorce equation. </p>

<p>Fafsa does not look at non custodial parents. Individual schools may have a non custodial parent form, and many LAC do. Profile I know less about, though the questions were exhaustive. Despite that, my experience is that custodial parent FAFSA is what determines the school offers. I was shocked, pleased. Fair or not? I don't know. Students growing up with divorce, chaos, less than the means and advantages of an intact family, it's kind that they aren't shut out of schools for their parents mistakes. Would PM more details.</p>

<p>In an ideal world parents, divorced or not would talk with the student about college finances. But as the world of child support is a parental topic, and college tuition in a sense, is an extention of child support, ideally I think divorced parents would show offspring a kindness by figuring out the basics of the decisions themselves, and not forcing the student into the role of intermediary. Kids loyalties are jerked around enough without college tuition becoming part of the dynamic. </p>

<p>Ideally college should be part of the divorce settlement or at least discussion. The divorce policies I'm familiar with harken from the days of age 18 being the age of independence, no parental imput or support needed. Those of us with students in college are living examples of anything but that!</p>

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<p>This is a mess, and internet advice is suspect.</p>

<p>FIrst--it depends on the state in which the divorce is filed. From googling, it does not appear that California has any provision about "parental expectation" which is a factor in our state. I would urge anybody who is party to a divorce anywhere to make sure their attorney was considering college expenses...my mother didn't think about it during her divorce and her reaction when the child support order expired was "oh well, guess you have to sue your own father if you want college money."</p>

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<p>Mombot said:</p>

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I would urge anybody who is party to a divorce anywhere to make sure their attorney was considering college expenses...my mother didn't think about it during her divorce

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<p>Oops, mom FORGOT? Well, it is not uncommon that the parents during the divorce are "looking out for number 1." And, yes that includes getting all they can for themselves out of the divorce. Hence, the suggestion that the student needs counsel and representation. </p>

<p>The attorneys negotiating for the parents are going to see that agreeing to fund college in the future is a "debit" to the client who assumes that obligation and will want to balance it by that person receiving some additional asset, or getting a reduction in some other form of support obligation.</p>

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and her reaction when the child support order expired was "oh well, guess you have to sue your own father if you want college money."

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<p>What a way to attempt to alienate the student and the non-custodial parent! </p>

<p>I actually have one friend who had this be the pivotal point in establishing a great relationship with his D. D's mom had bad-mouthed father during and after the divorce process and had made cooperative visitation as difficult as possible. Then came the college tuition issue. Mom said to D "hey, don't look at me, I didn't think about this when the divorce was taking place, get it from that S_B dad." </p>

<p>D broached college expenses with dad and told him what mom had said. Dad didn't respond to this other than work with the D so that she got the economic support she needed to attend her college of choice. Mom was tremendously threatened by this and told D that the dad must have been doing it out of guilt from having shoved an unfair settlement of the divorce on the mom.</p>

<p>D was crushed to think that dad was doing it out of guilt. She confronted the dad about what mom had said. Dad said nothing other than he was doing this because he loved her. D wasn't buying this and confided what had happened to a younger step brother. SB had access to dad's office in the house and looked at the attorneys' correspondance in the divorce. He let his step sister read it.</p>

<p>It was Mom who had made the property and support demand that the dad had accepted. Dad had counter-proposed that as part of the settlement they use marital assets to fund an educational trust. Mom would not agree.</p>

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<p>Dad certainly took the high road on that one, 07Dad. I hope the D was able to realize that and see how the string was really played out, and at some point, will appreciate her father's efforts not to bad-mouth his ex and to not let D's anger spoil their relationship.</p>

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<p>
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appreciate her father's efforts not to bad-mouth his ex

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<p>Psychological, not legal, thoughts:</p>

<p>I wish parents whose divorces are fraught with bad feeling (well that's the point, but there is more and less of it) would think so hard about this. When one parent says to a child, "the other parent is scum" it's like saying "Half of you is scum" because that's where 50% of that child comes from. It has to be devastating to the child's self-esteem to hear this about the other parent. </p>

<p>I've seen it where a custodial parent insists that all the fault is with the other parent. As young as they are, the child must take sides with the custodial parent. After all, one parent has just "left" them, and if they don't agree with the one who remains, perhaps the custodian will also leave next? That's the unspoken fear and small kids can't even put it into words, but they're forced to take sides when there are "sides."</p>

<p>A cousin of mine was very smart, in a way. Her ex was irresponsible, flighty, and so on, but she never told her two boys (says she, and I believe her well enough) about all his flaws. She figured they'd sadly find it out for themselves, if it were even true towards them. She had to sit through sad scenes, like the boys sitting on the porch steps for a visit and he never showed up. They came to their own conclusions about him (unreliable guy) but it wasn't her words lingering in their heads, it was their own thoughts. She would comfort them afterwards but never indulge in, "See, I told you he was rotten" kind of talk. That took a lot of restraint on her part, because I know that's what she was thinking as she watched them on the porch steps.</p>

<p>All the money issues I think just express or reflect these relationship and character issues, much like a mirror.</p>

<p>I feel very badly for kids today. I hardly know anybody with an amicable, manageable divorce situation. Those that have worked it out so it can proceed have my utmost respect. It is just SO hard on everyone, and when I think that divorce made things "better" well it must have been a nightmare before the divorce. </p>

<p>Just a rant, reflection or whatever here.</p>

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<p>I have to share a "good divorce" story. The parents always put the kids first. When Mom was offered a promotion that would take her out of state, she and Dad discussed it. Mom was going to refuse the promotion so kids could see Dad. Dad wanted her to take it. She did. Dad began looking for a new job in the new state. Soon, he found one and moved to the same town as Mom so that they could share visits without difficulty, each could attend the kids' activities, and the kids could see and be with their friends regardless of whose "weekend" it was.</p>

<p>A while ago, I read one of Judge Judy's books. She had worked in NY's family courts before she became a star. She recollected telling two litigants that if a stranger were doing to their children what they each were doing, she could throw them in jail for child abuse! It's so sad, what some parents do to their own kids.</p>

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<p>Thanks for everyone's interest and advice. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that the kids really do not care for their father. There is a lot of bad blood due to past episodes. Building a better relationship between him and kids is pretty much a pipe dream, but I guess anything is possible.</p>

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<p>doubleplay said:</p>

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the kids really do not care for their father. There is a lot of bad blood due to past episodes. Building a better relationship between him and kids is pretty much a pipe dream, but I guess anything is possible

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<p>I am guessing that you are a friend of or relative of the mom. There is always hope. At least for a HS senior, the next step is "leaving home." What looks one way under the roof of one or both of the parents can start to change if the student (and the parent) works to achieve change.</p>

<p>My heart goes out to the student. My suggestion would be to use this point of change to directly approach the dad and lay it out. Tell him about how he (I now assume the student is male) feels and ask if there is some way to start to work on changing things.</p>

<p>If the student makes this effort and dad "blows it" by remaining "true to form," the student still knows that he (the student) made an effort. </p>

<p>The post from ivyalum should give the student some hope. If there is a GC who could assist this process, the student is well advised to use them. The "bad one" (parent) usually will do right on college where they have the money and are directly challenged to "do right." </p>

<p>If it is the student who is asking, he has a reasonable plan and he understands that this is a process that will not result in a change in dad overnight, it can work.</p>

<p>Candidly, adults on the outside of a messy divorce can assist the student, but only if they can seperate themselves from their feelings about who is "right" in the divorce. doubleplay, if you have the money and the interest, try to find the student a mental health counselor. But don't you, as a "friend," add to the negativism. I am very sure this student has all he can handle of that.</p>

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<p>"But don't you, as a "friend," add to the negativism." </p>

<p>Yes, '07 that is one of the central tasks for people surrounding the divorcing couple. Divorce can spiral into far worse negativity than when the couple was married. I remember at my book group all the married women cheering a story where some guy had been put out on his ear in a very public fashion for bad behavior. Perhaps deserved, however all I could think about was the implication for the future for that couple and their kids. Over the top insanity does not aid in creating a collaborative relationship for raising kids over the long haul. In my own divorce, many well meaning people told me to get an attorney, 'get the money you deserve' I felt what I deserved was an ex spouse who would still talk to me, and negotiate the myriad details of our kids lives. Some who fight for everything they 'deserve' are still paying attorney bills years later and the battles have escalated and stayed that way. So we have had 13 years of divorced life, and while not always easy, we've negotiated our way through all of it, kindergarden through college. My line is that we're in the business of raising children together. Emotion has no place in the relationship, as it is a business relationship, and emotional issues need to go to your therapist, friends or whatever. Now emotions certainly can run high at times, but for the most part, are kept out of the arena between the two of us. Have things been 'fair?' Yes and no. Life isn't fair but we keep working towards some approximation of fair and just. </p>

<p>There need to be better examples of collaborative divorce in this culture. For whatever reason, onlookers can have much interest in taking sides, escallating rather than reducing confict. People do best if they can treat each other with respect and kindness, no matter what the situation, even at times when it feels one sided. Divorce is no exception.</p>

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<p>^^GLM, lots of wisdom in your post above!! I learned from it.</p>

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<p>FWIW, there are some OOS private colleges which use only the FAFSA to gather financial aid information. Three I can think of are schools my stepson applied to two years ago, Earlham (where he is now), Beloit, and Lake Forest. This is a godsend to us, as the non-custodial parent in our case is not willing to pay for college. Perhaps y'all can think of others. Nonetheless, I would suggest that the kid in question apply to a variety of colleges, always knowing it might be essential to go to a FAFSA-only school, in case Dad really does not come through.</p>

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<p>Yes, keeping a positive spin is something I try to do. No, I'm not friends with mom or dad, nor do I know them personally. This is strictly a relationship with the kid through my kids. The stuff that has happened in the past has been hair raising- kids having to call 911, being left in bars, etc. And yes, wife sticking it out for all these years under these conditions can only go under the heading of enabling.</p>

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<p>This comment, plus the one that states that the child wants an OOS private leads me to make the following comment. Many private schools require that the PROFILE be filed...so the income of the millionaire non-custodial parent WILL be used in the finaid calculation. Will the courts require that this parent pay the full freight for an OOS private college education? Only the court can answer that question, and that is where that decision will need to be made. But...truth be known...there is no legal mandate that REQUIRES that any parent pay the college tuition of their child. There is nothing legally that requires parents to contribute to the college costs for students...NOTHING. The only thing that IS required is that the non-custodial parent will be asked to provide income/asset information for financial aid purposes IF the school uses the Profile as part of the finaid application. </p>

<p>Any parent...married, divorced, or whatever, can say "I'm not going to pay." Would the courts intervene for a college student of parents who are NOT divorced? I think not.</p>

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<p>30 (yikes) years ago, I was in a somewhat similar situation. My custodial mom and my dad came to an agreement whereby my dad would pay for college. According to my mom, this adversely affected her alimony, and her lawyer advised against it. I only have my mom's word on this, I never asked my dad. And now it's been so many years, it seems pointless to bring it up! My dad did advise my brother and me to choose "affordable schools". </p>

<p>My Bro was accepted to Lehigh, and dad said he'd only pay for Rutgers.(engineering) I don't know if mom could have gone back to the courts on that one. I chose USC Carolina and it was a bargain back then.</p>

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<p>Comments on the schools and Profile. Having survived the process of my twins applying to myriad LACs this spring-as a single parent, I came to have a certain understanding of the process. Our applications were mostly in the midwest, with a few on the coasts. Most of these schools, though not every one, if not Profile, require a supplemental form for non custodial parents. The Profile itself has separate forms for custodial and non custodial parents. So non Profile doesn't mean that both parents' assets will go unexamined. What is not clear to me is what they do with that information about the non custodial parent. I asked one school if they would figure out an amount appropriate for each parent to pay based on income, and they looked at me as if nuts. Hard to imagine how those parents who refuse to communicate figure this stuff out. </p>

<p>Mmom, as I felt rather abandoned by my divorced parents when it came to college-I was sure to get something about college into my divorce argreement. (Hate to say abandoned, as they both were kindly people, who didn't quite understand, and asking was hard) But both the ex and the lawyer seemed to not see the importance of including a college agreement in our divorce. Not a common practice, even in our highly educated town! Got in at my insistance, and while not what I'd agree to, with what I know now, it has worked for us. </p>

<p>You think divorce is rough now. The shame and social ostracism of getting divorced in the sixties, when it was far less common, no child care, made for a hard life for single parents. I didn't like getting divorced, but was thankful that society now has structures in place to make the process easier.</p>