Hi, I am a competitive swimmer who has a 3.5 GPA and a 32 ACT. My two main schools I want to swim for are Case Western and Carnegie Mellon. Obviously my scores are significantly below average for both of the schools, but with being a potential student athlete for the schools, do I have a better chance of getting accepted? Schools always are looking for students that would bring something to the campus, would this be a hook?
I am assuming you are an 11th grader?
If the coaches of those programs take an interest in you, to the extent that they invite you on official (overnight) visits to those schools in the early fall of your senior year, and those visits go well, then yes, you will increase your admission odds. There are still no guarantees though. Not in D3.
If you haven’t done it already, you should write the coaches emails expressing your interest and telling them your best times.
Unlike the Ivy’s where there are mandated Academic Index the student athlete has to have in order to be considered for admissions, the non-Ivys and D3 school do not have such a structured requirement. For D3, the coaches may have more influence on admissions depending on the sport, school and the strength of your athletic profile. Best would be to email the coaches with your athletic resume and ask if you are a fit for their team and if you can have a pre-read of your grades and what are your chances of being accepted. Good luck.
I think the answer in some cases is yes. Especially if the coach is willing to advocate for you in the admissions process. At the DIII level, we found that the common playbook for T&F, XC athletes (I would bet it is similar to swimming) is:
1> You reach out to coach to show interest
2> The coach asks to see your athletic and scholastic resume
3> S/he decides if you’re a good fit
4> S/he lets you know that s/he is willing to advocate for you at admissions if you apply ED (this shows you are equally committed)
5> S/he works with admissions and gets a pre-read on your academic acheivement
6> They (coach and admissions) decide if you’d be a good fit, knowing that the athletic department has a little “pixie dust” that they can overcome a small amount of academic (32 ACT is not awful at CW, maybe a little worse at CM, but if you aren’t a CS major, not out of the question) capital s/he can use to not negatively affect the overall academic profile of the team/athletic department.
7> If you are a good fit, you might get a Likely Letter (Google that if you don’t know what it is)
You should also Google “Life of a DIII athlete.” There are some things that my son did not know before he started this playbook. For example, athletes at schools like CM or Williams or UChicago or MIT are often looked at like a lower caliber student. Not sure if that is still true, you might get an advantage in the admissions process, but face negative bias once you’re there. BTW, my son went through the process above with UChicago, applied ED and was sent a Likely Letter (was also told that this was the process at other top DIII academic schools, one of which was CM when he was going through the playbook).
Also, from your top two school choices, you might live in Western PA or Eastern, OH. I do believe that CM gives a little bump to PA students and CW to OH students. And if you’ve shown realistic interest in the schools to get on their radar (emailed the coach, visited the university through the admissions office, visited the coach at the school etc.) that will help too.
I think it can help in some cases. Some observations about your college choices and your stats. I don’t think you should consider your 32 on the ACT or 3.5 as bad for CW or CM (non-Computer Science). Also, if those are your choices I suspect you live in Western PA or Eastern OH. If so, I believe that CM gives a little bump for PA students and CW for OH students. As stated above, let the universities know your interested by contacting the coach, visiting during an admissions event where you register, etc.
Here is my experience after recently going through the process with my son, a DIII T&F/CC athlete. I can only assume it is going to be very similar to swimming.
The quoted DIII recruiting playbook that I know DIII schools like CM, W&L, Bowdoin, Williams, Johns Hopkins, and UChicago use from first hand experience:
Step 1> Let the coach know you are interested in their school. These schools have small coaching staffs that really don’t have time to go looking for athletes. Help them out and let them know you are interested in them in a non-obnoxious way.
Step 2> The coach will ask for your academic/athletic resume, including score reports, transcripts, etc.
Step 3> The coach will decide if you are a good fit and let you know. He will contact admissions and get a admissions pre-read. Here is where the coach and the admissions office weight your credentials and decide if you are a good fit for the school/team. Realize that a coach does have the ability to enhance your total picture if your academics are a little low. Also, realize that the athletic department and teams at highly selective DIII pay attention to Athletic Team and Department academic performance and want to keep that at an acceptable level. You should also consider some of the posts on the DIII athlete and how they are perceived by the student body. You may get admissions help but be viewed with a negative bias as being below par with the rest of the student body. This was a surprise to my son or at least something he didin’t think about. For him, a bigger concern because he is an awesome student (top of his class, great test scores and 4.0 unweighted GPA in almost exclusively AP classes).
Step 4> The coach will then let you know if you apply ED, you can expect to be accepted. The ED was key, if you show you are committed, the school will commit to you. My son applied ED to UChicago and received a Likely Letter about three weeks ago. I was unfamiliar with what a Likely Letter really means, but most of my research shows that it is essentially an acceptance letter. The same restrictions to maintain academic performance are in the letter. To the point that the University allows him to submit an acceptance and a enrollment deposit, so I think it is essentially an acceptance letter, another is promised in December when ED/EAs go out.
I hope this helps and good luck.
We met with a coach at Carnegie Mellon for a different sport. The first thing he told us is he has no pull with admissions and we were on our own for acceptance. It may be different in swimming but don’t assume anything.
I agree with “don’t assume anything” after our experience with D3 LAC’s. I think it is possible to be a hook, if your GPA is in their range, but it will very by school. In our experience, coaches wanted to know GPA and test scores (recruit spot is helpful for this) before meeting/phone conversations took place. At one school, we thought it would be a hook, but in the end was just another factor along with GPA (most important), admissions interview, etc.
Your ACT is fine. I’m assuming your GPA is unweighted? It’s a bit low, but not impossible for a high academic D3, though I don’t have specific knowledge of those two schools. It’s also important that you have a rigorous schedule. Really, how low they will go depends on how good of a swimmer you are, and how that specific school values your sport. S1 has a 3.6 UW GPA with 12 AP’s and a 33ACT. He is above average in his sport for a D3. He had plenty of interest and offers from some top(academically) D3’s.
One problem I see is that you narrowed your search down prematurely, limiting your chances to be admitted to a good D3 school. Those two schools may well have recruited their swimmers for your year, not value swimming, or simply aren’t impressed by you of your potential. You owe it to yourself to make yourself available to more schools.
Athletics are definitely a hook, as long as you are a good enough athlete.
Met coaches at showcases and campus for other high academic D3 schools.
Johns Hopkins, which is probably comparable to CM, told us that a few years ago the coach had more influence,
and someone with slightly below avg grades could make it in, but that those days are over at JH.
He said if you don’t have the same scores as other admits, he can’t get you in.
Caltech expressed interest. Two of their teams went years without a win, setting record long losing streaks,
because they value academics over athletics in the admission process.
Had coaches from multiple schools say “get your ACT/SAT score up and come back to talk to me when you do”.
My son had 30 ACT, so maybe your 32 would get more options, but not in all these schools.
But there are plenty of other schools where it can be a near guarantee that the coach can get you in,
if you are one of their top picks. Those schools might even give you lots of “academic merit” aid.
But if you are set on CM I wouldn’t count on the coach , get that ACT score up higher.
Not as familiar with CW but the rule of thumb is that the higher the grades/test scores at a school, the less influence
the coach would have. Schools that value their rankings, don’t get ranked by wins in swimming or any sport.
Carnegie Mellon has no pull for swimming…" I never know who I’m going to get until you do"
My D was recruited by many D3 schools for another sport. Some had more pull than others, and they were pretty open about telling my D what pull they had. In all cases though, my D had to meet generally accepted standards for other students. I got the impression, you had better at least fall in the middle 50%. The other thing that mattered was where you fell on the coaches list. Top recruits had more pull than those at the bottom. D has not let folks know she has applied ED1 to XXX D3 school yet because the admissions process is not certain til you get that letter.
CM swim coach has pull - nationally ranked teams don’t just come together on their own; our DD’s had a classmate recruited last year who is killing it as a freshman. So does track; xc/track DD had a teammate given RD support last year after an explosive Indoor season- until then the student-athlete wasn’t on the radar there.
Depends, on the school, on the sport, on the student athlete. Our experience was, at some of the top 20, non-NESCAC LACs where athletics is not known to be a strong hook, kid was told needed to hit top 25ish% for test scores in order to feel solid about acceptance. He already had strong gpa, most rigorous curriculum etc. For some of those schools, the team was not that strong, and kid would be an impact player right away, but still no real hook.
Expand your search if continuing to compete in your sport is a top priority in your college decision. Identify the factors that interest you in those two schools (urban, STEM?) and see what else is similar. Union perhaps? Rochester? D3 recruiting requires keeping a lot of opportunities open until the fall of senior year, and sometimes later.
Sort of begs the question if you DO have the same stats as other students, can he get you in? And I think that is the hidden hook. If it is between two very similar kids with similar stats and similar ECs and similar geographic appeal, can the coach influence the admission of the good swimmer over the kid whose EC was choir?
I think the coaches can, because I don’t think the coaches take the first 10 kids who show up for practice and have successful teams (ask CalTech how that method works).
@mhsmi18, are you a senior? If yes, top-10 D3 swim programs such as JHU and CM are going to push to get recruiting completed during ED 1/ED 2.
Here’s this week Men’s D3 swim rankings - lots of great schools with the usual powerhouses are on top;
1 Denison 323 3
2 Emory 311 2
3 Kenyon 295 1
4 MIT 289 4
5 Johns Hopkins 277 5
6 NYU 252 T-7
7 WashU 251 6
8 Chicago 249 T-7
9 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 209 13
10 Pomona-Pitzer 192 20
11 Tufts 191 10
12 Williams 170 9
13 Carnegie Mellon 164 12
14 Carthage 145 22
15 Rowan 145 11
16 Amherst 137 16
17 Calvin 135 NR
18 TCNJ 103 15
19 Saint Thomas 95 23
20 UW-Stevens Point 76 NR
21 Coast Guard 63 NR
22 Stevens 50 NR
23 WPI 37 18
24 DePauw 24 13
25 Swarthmore 22 24
What are you interested in studying? My friend’s son is a freshman playing football at CMU - I think it definitely helped his admissions. But he wasn’t admitted into engineering. I think the football helped him get in, but not enough to put him in a major he wasn’t qualified for. But the football team was in big need of players - if they are a top ranked swim team already, there may not be as much need, unless you are a top ranked swimmer.
@Chembiodad it was actually the XC/distance coach who told us straight out he had no pull with admissions.
@eastcoast101, CM has a nationally ranked D3 Men’s XC team (#13); am confident that the coach has pull when they want to use it.
@Chembiodad maybe–I’m just reporting what he told us.
Once they are accepted and attend, there is no obligation on the student’s part to actually swim or play, correct? So essence, the school is taking a risk?