<p>"a report at JHU found that half of their entering Frosh expect to have "an unsatisfactory student experience", or conversely, only 50% expect a satisfactory experience, in comparison to their "normative group of peer institutions" where 67% expect to have a satisfactory experience...(Cooperative Institutional Research Program Frosh Study"</p>
<p>What a horrible commentary! (Glad I hadn't seen those numbers before - I'd never want to send my kid to a place where half the student body fully expected to have a lousy time!) Of course, it could be easier to meet low expectations, so what the senior numbers would mean is anyone's guess. Still, it would allow the institution to do trends data over time.</p>
<p>it was 2002 data, and JHU is taking it seriously, and trying to upgrade the frosh-soph experience, but some faculty resistant to change schedules and so-forth to make it happen....time will tell.</p>
<p>I am surprised that none of the Larry Summers belittlers have joined in on this thread. Is he part of the problem or the solution?</p>
<p>I am revising my thoughts about a shot across the bow. I now think that the ship of the Harvard FAS (is this correct?) has been sunk. The alumni will now support Summers to the bitter end. They have been there, done that, experienced that His first target was a defenseless (witless?) person banished to the wilderness (poor Princeton). The second target turned out to be even easier.</p>
<p>On other threads, some have despaired that Summers was incompetent and couldn't handle Boston politics. Nuff said.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I am surprised that none of the Larry Summers belittlers have joined in on this thread. Is he part of the problem or the solution?>></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>In general, I agree with Cosar's post linked above, except to say that the FAS' disagreements with Summers do not seem to have anything to do with the issues reported in the Globe.</p>
<p>Larry Summers has consistently put the focus on undergraduate education, so he is "part of the solution." The problems identified in the survey predate Summers and indeed seem to be of long-standing. Freshman advising has been a particular problem. The Freshman Dean has been fired, but I don't know that a better advising system will be in place by fall. According to the Crimson, students have rejected an informal proposal to adopt a Yale-style four-year college system to bring freshmen and upperclassmen together, though they agreed that a lot of advice that freshmen depend on comes from upperclassmen. Another complaint, large classes, seems to be the consequence of a combination of requirements and the popularity of certain courses; include among the latter group is the Summers/Sandel course on Globalization which has made it into the top ten most popular courses. While Summers has stressed the need to increase the faculty and offer more smaller classes, some other proposals, in particular the Harvard College courses, would seem to undermine the trend toward smaller classes.</p>
<p>Since joining CC, I have learned how much stress some families and students put on applying to and being admitted to an Ivy. For some, especially internationals, it is Harvard or bust. I would not be surprised that some students end up at Harvard though it is not the best fit for them. I also think that Harvard's attempts to build a class of well-lopsided students may sometimes lead to odd choices; some of these may be successful, others may not. In addition, I've noticed how much Harvard-bashing goes on. It was interesting that DormAid made it into some other campuses without fuss or fanfare but that it generated so much controversy and press coverage when it was proposed at Harvard.</p>
<p>Do Harvard students grouse more than other students? I got bashed by some posters on the Harvard board by pointing out that on studentreviews.com, MIT students give the surrounding city an A and Harvard students a mere B. Grade inflation at Harvard? Gee....</p>
<p>I agree with Marite's comments about some students choosing to attend Harvard when it may not be the best fit for them. My son was accepted to Harvard EA three years ago, but during our visit for the admitted students weekend, my son and I both got the impression that Harvard would not be the best choice for him among the schools where he had been admitted to. He chose to attend another school which has turned out to be a great fit for him and remains very happy with his decision. However, it seems like many students do not think their choices through in this manner. Harvard has, by far, the highest yield rate for admitted students of any college in the country, and I believe that many students automatically attend if admitted without evaluating the pros and cons of Harvard versus other schools for their particular needs. It is not surprising that some of these students say that they are not happy, if Harvard was not the most appropriate school for them to begin with.</p>
<p>Is anyone willing to venture a guess on the other 4? I'm sticking with JHU for my nomination. Not only is competition cut throat with pre-meds and BMEs, but I've never seen a more segregated student body. When we visited, the faculty and administration went out of their way to be helpful and hospitable, but the students all seemed so depressed. I've never sensed that kind of dark pessimism on the Harvard campus.</p>
<p>I believe the rankings are based on a variety of indices, not all of which are listed in the article. So, just to speculate, I would suggest, besides, JHU Chicago "where the fun comes to die" and Rochester, which students I know said was far colder than they expected, even though they are from NE. That makes 3. I'm stumped for n.4.</p>
<p>When I first read this thread, I thought it said, "Do Harvard students "gross" more than other students?" I think that must be another survey! LOL</p>
<p>This generation grouses more. Quite a few grouse as much as we do and we're old and crotchety. Not as old and crotchety as my Dad and Rush, (kindred spirits), but pretty dang old.</p>
<p>Every school has a sport of some sort.....at Big Red it is usually "I am working harder than you are.....I am more hosed than you are" is that hunting grouse?</p>
<p>
[quote]
2003, Dartmouth graduates had the following plans:</p>
<p>51% went to work
19% went to grad school
4% did volunteer work</p>
<p>Graduate and Professional School</p>
<p>The total proportion of graduates entering graduate school directly or intending to do so in one to five years increased by 17 percentage points from 2002 to 2003 (66% versus 83%). That more students are entering graduate school directly this year than any of the previous four years partly explains this trend. While 21% of graduates planned to do so in 2001 and 20% in 2002, fully one respondent in four (25%) reported entering graduate school directly in 2003.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not to bash Dartmouth, since I know very little about the school, but this is an illustration of what I see as a real issue with many of the "elite colleges" in terms of outcomes. Compare these numbers with published outcome stats for other places (just to pick two that I recently viewed), e.g., Emory (50%) or St. Mary's College of Maryland (>%50).</p>
<p>Am I the only one who believes that producing a high % of students interested, excited, and motivated enough to continue their education immediately upon graduation is right up there on the 'value scale' for evaluating a school? (I have posted before about my stepdaughter, honors graduate of Williams, who said "I never want to work that hard again!") IMO, if elite institutions are taking these talented students and turning them off to education, they should sit up and take notice!</p>